War and Peace Readalong thread 2022 - thread 2

[VikingNorthUtsire]

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classics-Tolstoy/dp/0099512246/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

NB also this link for the kindle version: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classic-Russians-ebook/dp/B005CUS9AG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Signet-Classics-Tolstoy-ebook/dp/B001RWQVXA/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Penguin-Popular-Classics-ebook/dp/B0033805UG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

From Gradesaver:

Chapter 16
The French surprise the Russians by appearing earlier than expected, having approached under the cover of fog. Kutuzov is seriously wounded in the attack, so Prince Andrei rallies the troops but is struck by something during the charge. Just before he is hit on the head and knocked out, Andrei sees Tushin fighting with some French soldiers.

Oh, glad they clarified it was Tushin - pleased tonsee him in action again, he really was fearless! Is he a real person too... let me see! Hmmm - it's not very clear although I don't think he is. Shame as he was clearly in the thick of it again - a brave man.

I was actually quite fearful for Andrey at the end there - I presume he recovers but the last paragraph struck me as a 'gazing to the heavens, appreciating life as it slips away' type narrative. Hope I've got it wrong as he's really grown on me - and showed his mettle this chapter too!

Checking in. I lost momentum for a bit, working crazy hours on Russia related stuff so couldn't face Tolstoy in my down time. Have now got covid so am off work and catching up with my reading.

I've found Andrey's POV and development great in the last few chapters - his need for glory and battle plan. It's all very chaotic with them all running back and forth in the fog.

Get well soon Stokey!

I thought that was an amazing chapter. The horror when they realised that the French were upon them, then the ensuing panic and confusion. Poor Kutuzov. I don't think he's going to make it. It wasn't his plan to attack either; he was overruled.

Andrey's heroic moment was brilliant, picking up the flag and trying to rally the men.

Thanks for clarifying it was Tushin. I didn't realise it was him when I read it first time round, but it does sound like him. Brave Tushin, fighting to the last.

Chapter 17
Prince Bagration does not want to send his regiments into battle because he wants to prevent unnecessary loss of life. To delay the action, Bagration sends Nikolai Rostov to Pratz to find out what their superiors want Bagration to do – an unnecessary and extremely dangerous errand. On his way, Nikolai sees the Russians and their allies, the Austrians, accidentally fire on each other.

Goodness - the chaos of war! Really vivid chapter.. could almost taste the smoke and confusion! Fascinating 'trip' through the battle and I have no idea how on earth you were ever supposed to know what was going on. Sad too though - the bit where he says about the loss of almost that entire Hussar troop was startling. I was impressed he found Boris & Berg amongst it all!

It was interesting to see how much Nikolai has matured over such a short period and I know most of it appears to be seeking glory from The Emperor, he is a very different man from the one who threw his gun at the enemy and turned tail and ran. That in itself is pretty tragic as well though, I think - enured to the terror and horror of war at such a young age.

Brings current events into sharp focus and how the lives of every Ukrainian will have been changed forever from the last week. My thoughts are with them

As a side note, I only just found out that Tolstoy's father was called Nikolai, and his mother Mariya (and his brother Nikolay also). Anyone know a good biography ? I feel like his life is well worth reading about.

Not a biography but I am reading this alongside War and Peace. It is a series of daily quotations/extracts from longer works collated by Tolstoy or sometimes written by him designed to be read over a year. It is quite interesting and gives an insight into his thinking.

www.amazon.co.uk/Calendar-Wisdom-Alma-Classics/dp/184749563X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=266L1BX85GI39&keywords=tolstoy+calendar+of+wisdom&sprefix=tolstoy+calendar%2Caps%2C87&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1646379198&sr=8-1

Chapter 18
When Nikolai arrives in Pratz, he is horrified to learn that the battle is lost and that Kutuzov has been wounded. He sees the emperor standing alone on the battlefield, but is too shy to approach him. He is furious at himself when another officer approaches the emperor to console him. Elsewhere, Dolokhovv_ and forty other soldiers fall through some ice while fleeing an attack.

Checking in on the new thread. I am not very good at keeping up with this thread, but I am still reading my daily chapters

Same Tarahumara, I'm a few chapters behind but will catch up quickly seeing as we have a day off shortly.

Such intense imagery in this chapter. The horror of cannonballs firing at you whilst being forced into cracking ice. Horrific.

I'm being very good at posting the Gradesaver summaries (Though not necessarily in the right order...) but bad at doing the actual reading. I'm hoping to catch up tomorrow.

There are only two more chapters in Book One. We'll be starting Book Two soon.

I'm looking forward to seeing what's ahead.

@midnightbluevelvet

Such intense imagery in this chapter. The horror of cannonballs firing at you whilst being forced into cracking ice. Horrific.

Yes - the ending of today's chapter was awful... I hope Dolokhov gets to the other side although, as the first to venture over, I have hope!

Poor Nikolay though - I'm sure we've all been there when the token of our affection is present and we chicken out.. what an opportunity for him though! I think for all his rapid growing up, he's still a young boy under it all! Mind you, hero worship isn't very healthy and there's a reason the saying is 'you should never meet your idols'

I'm still reading too. I don't have anything very insightful to say, but War and Peace and the Ukraine war will now forever be linked in my mind.

What is on my mind today as well is how young many of the soldiers are, both in Tolstoy's novel and in today's war. Rostov is naive and idealistic and makes a lot of impulsive decisions, but he's so young... 20 I think?

I have a DS who is 17, I love him to bits and he can be both thoughtful and clever, but he's still so emotionally immature and such a child in so many ways. He's sensitive and reacts to things with great intensity as teenagers do. I can't get my head round the idea of young men close to his age engaging in combat, either in Tolstoy's time or today.

Also, me to my DH this morning: 'My brain is just so tired, I want to do some leisure reading but I can't seem to focus.'

My DH, looking at the massive tome next to me on the bed: 'Um, maybe that's because the book you're trying to read is War and Peace ?'

Me: 'Oh. Yeah. Good point.'

Sorry SanFranBear, I realise you just commented on Rostov's youth as well! I'm just agreeing with you.

No worries, Cassandre - it's all so relevant, isn't it. And agree re linking the two.

Your DH does probably have a point I've been power reading through some incredible Family Saga type books by Cynthia Harrod-Eagles (the Morland Dynasty, if anyone is a fan!) and I've had to stop as they've reached the Crimean War now and it's just too much. It's easy to get overwhelmed.

My thoughts go out to all those living it and hope there's an end to the bloodshed in Ukraine and in other conflicts around the world soon

I appear to be the only person I know who didn’t read Riders by Jilly Cooper as a 16 year old so it is currently providing the antidote for me (though it’s got it’s own issues).

I am really enjoying (wrong word) this readalong. It’s such a lovely way to read. I only read this is 2020 so it’s still pretty fresh for me. There is a certain spot near me that I sit at sometimes and one of the battles really plays out in front of me.

@StColumbofNavron I can see Riders being the perfect antidote. Even when I read it back in the 80s, there were issues with it, I never liked Helen or Jake particularly. Rivals is much better IMO.

I thought this chapter was awful, poor Rostov and then the disaster on the ice. Its impossible not to think of it in relation to Ukraine. When the Ukrainian army let the young Russians soldiers they'd captured ring their parents, it definitely brought Rostov to mind.

Love old school Jilly Cooper!

Chapter 19
Prince Andrei lies dying on the battlefield, clutching the Russian standard. Napoleon, surveying the site of his victory, sees this and is impressed. He orders Andrei to be taken to the hospital, and after the prince is treated, Napoleon graciously praises him and two other high-ranking prisoners. Although Andrei used to idolize Napoleon, his near-death experience has changed his attitude, and the French emperor now strikes him as petty and insignificant.

Gradesavers analysis of Volume 1 Part 3:

Analysis
It is worth discussing Tolstoy’s use of the French language in War and Peacece^. About two percent of the novel is written in French (Flaitz 3), although English translations approach this differently. Some include the French passages in the original; others translate them into English just like the Russian. Many critics have suggested that the use of French implies a social critique (Figes). The characters often lapse into French when they are being pretentious or deceptive, while they use Russian when they are being more forthcoming. The eccentric but straightforward Prince Nikolai Bolkonskyy never uses French, and Tolstoy comments explicitly that Prince Andrei uses French “when he wanted to speak disdainfully” (249). In any case, there is a certain irony in the fact that the characters profess to hate Napoleon while using the French language.
In this section, Tolstoy demonstrates the power of suggestion in relationships, particularly romantic ones. Although they are not interested in marriage, both Pierre Bezukhov and Princess Marya Bolkonskyy_ are influenced by others to desire marriage. Although Princess Drubetskoy and Mlle Bourienne are not particularly subtle, Pierre and Marya are completely oblivious to the fact that third parties first inspired their attraction to Hélène and Anatole, respectively.
The role of influence isn’t the only parallel between Pierre and Marya’s romantic misadventures. Because they are wealthy, both characters are in a position to choose if and when to get married. Both characters would be considered undesirable if they did not have so much money. Tolstoy explicitly notes at the beginning of this section that no one thought much of Pierre before his surprise inheritance, and Marya’s ‘plain’ appearance takes a major toll on her self-esteem.
Most importantly, each character must face an internal dilemma when considering marriage. Pierre must choose between rational consideration and physical attraction, and Marya must weigh Mlle Bourienne’s feelings against her own desire for earthly love and a family. Their very different responses to these dilemmas is a strong indicator of their moral fortitude (or lack thereof). Regardless of what they choose, what we do see in these characters is a serious moral consciousness and thoughtfulness that is hardly shared by every character. Both are sensitive to the conflict described above, and even if (as in Pierre's case), they choose poorly, they are unique in having so directly confronted themselves and their competing desires.
In the second part of this section, Tolstoy explores the power of great individuals to change history. Despite his youth and his mild personality, Tsar Alexander has an exaggerated influence on the enlisted men’s morale – especially that of Nikolai Rostov, who was previously discouraged by his horrific first battle experience. However, Alexander’s influence is negated by that of Napoleon, who also visits his troops before the battle and rallies them even more effectively by appealing to their desire to protect their emperor. By including Napoleon’s speech in full, Tolstoy suggests that this feat of rhetoric was a decisive factor in the battle’s outcome. Further, it humanizes the emperor in a way that reminds us that history is not created by detached concepts like Napoleon, but rather by real men like Napoleon.
In fact, this section further indicates the historical nature of the novel. All of the battles thus far related are based on real battles, and Tolstoy does not change their outcome. And yet his focus is quite different from that of a historian; not only is he more interested in the way individual (rather than non-specific group) decisions affect the outcome, but he also wants to explore the effect of war on these individuals. Certainly, any writer of fiction would want to focus on the work's particular characters, but many of the sections lack dramatic momentum, instead delving deeply into a character's psychology, morality, and thoughts. What emerges is not only the way individuals can impact history, but how big historical events - like horrific battles the likes of which Europe had rarely seen - similarly affect individuals. It is arguably in terms of this large historical interest that Tolstoy's novel is most epic and expansive in its scope.

Hey guys 23% through!

Thanks Desdemona, I'd almost forgotten the Pierre and Marya stories were in this section as we've been so bogged down by war. A lot of philosophy from Andrey in this chapter when he finally meets his hero Napoleon, musing on "the insignificance of greatness" in stark contrast to his dream of glory a few chapters back. I feel much more sympathetic to this broken Andrey than to the arrogant man we met at. the start.