War and Peace Readalong thread 2022 - thread 2

[VikingNorthUtsire]

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classics-Tolstoy/dp/0099512246/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

NB also this link for the kindle version: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classic-Russians-ebook/dp/B005CUS9AG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Signet-Classics-Tolstoy-ebook/dp/B001RWQVXA/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Penguin-Popular-Classics-ebook/dp/B0033805UG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

@StColumbofNavron

This seems an appropriate time to share my favourite duel painting: Pushkin carried by his servant (it will be no surprise that Pushkin died).

Amazing! Thanks for sharing that StColombofNavron.

Hi, can I join you? I came across this thread last week and have been binge-reading the book and the thread a chapter at a time to catch up. It will be a huge change of pace to switch into one chapter a day mode now.
I've never particularly wanted to read War and Peace but something about this just grabbed me. I've really enjoyed the discussion, especially trying to work out what I think about Tolstoy's women. It's also been very moving seeing the current war unfold through the thread.
Thanks to everyone who's added their insights and of course to Viking for setting it up and to Desdemona and Fuzzy for the chapter summaries.

You are very welcome BishyBarnyBee.

Bishy - I did similar as in, I read the first section in a few days as I was late to start and didn't realise there was 'day to day' chat on the threads.

I have to say, reading one chapter a day is an absolute delight and way, way better than I expected. I tend to read the following days chapter in bed each night and I really look forward to it as well as seeing the synopses and people's thoughts the next day.

I'm still reading other books along side as one chapter a day would never be enough as I adore reading but it has been a revelation and makes me want to read all the enormous books which I've always put off (despite having read W&P before!)..

I must admit to reading ahead to the next chapter too .. even though I've read W&P before I needed to know!

It's so cinematic; really grabs your attention. I got the impression that Pierre hit Dolokhov almost by accident whereas Dolokhov deliberately missed Pierre. He certainly sounded as if he made a generous target!

I thought Pierre definitely found his target by accident but Dolokhov was trying really hard to hit Pierre highlandcoo, hence the mouthful of snow to try and clear his brain and the insistence Pierre didn't cross the barrier.
But then I think Dolokhov is a thoroughly bad egg (mother love not withstanding) so tend to always think the worst of him 😬
Welcome Bishy and well done on your marathon sprint to catch up with both the book and the threads in a week 😅 This is going to feel like a very leisurely pace from here on in!

Great painting StColombo going to look that one up.

I also had the impression that Pierre hit Dolokhov by accident, but that Dolokhov meant to hit Pierre ('hate-filled eyes').

Thanks for the kind words earlier this week, Viking! I'm so glad you started this read-along.

My uni term just finished yesterday which is a huge relief; I'm so tired I feel like I could sleep for a couple of weeks straight (not sure how much is normal end-of-term tiredness and how much is lingering post-Covid fatigue, but never mind, I can rest now!). I've just caught up on this week's chapters.

Am loving all the Hamilton duelling references as Hamilton is huge in our house too

Thank goodness both Pierre and Dolokhov came out of that stupid duel alive. Desdemona 's info about barrier duelling was new to me but I know aristocratic duelling was a problem that plagued Europe for ages. In France, monarchs kept trying to outlaw it from the 16th century onward, because such an absurdly high number of lives were being lost. It was all tied up with old feudal notions of honour, and with noble families fighting among themselves instead of letting their differences be settled by a centralised judicial system.

Neither Pierre nor Dolokhov seems to have their heart in it really. Like war, it's an example of unnecessary male-perpetrated violence.

-- Alexander
-- Aaron Burr, sir
-- Can we agree that duels are dumb and immature?
-- Sure
-- But your man has to answer for his words, Burr
-- With his life? We both know that's absurd, sir

Lin Manuel = genius

Oops, cross-posted with the speculation about whether Dolokhov meant to hit Pierre or not. Like highlandcoo I originally thought maybe he misfired deliberately, because the shot seemed like a dead cert. But now I think the recollection of Hamilton firing into the air may have made me misinterpret here.

Volume 2 Part I
Chapter 6
Pierre retreats to his Moscow mansion and spends a sleepless night on the sofa. We are thrown into his stream of consciousness as he obsesses about the duel (convinced he has killed Dolokhov) and what has led him to this point. He thinks back over his brief courtship and unhappy marriage to Hélène, aware that he shouldn’t have married her in the first place as he never loved her.
(Another slight hint at the - should we say ‘unusual’- relationship between Hélène and her brother from Tolstoy here, as we learn how Anatole used to kiss her bare shoulders, when he came round with his begging bowl, and she was not adverse to his attentions.)

Bad news travels fast and when Hélène confronts Pierre the next morning gossip of the duel and it’s outcome has already reached her.
She’s scornful and patronising telling Pierre off as though he were a naughty child, accusing him of being ‘drunk’, ‘jealous’, ‘a fool’, ‘an idiot’. She believes herself to be a ‘laughing-stock all over Moscow’ because of his actions and implies he’s lucky she hasn’t taken a whole host of lovers given his inadequacies. Dolokhov, she declares, is a ‘better man than you in every way’.

Pierre is diffident, slow to rouse, but as she continually ‘pokes the bear’ he begins to growl (literally) and finally explodes into a murderous rage. Screaming, “I’ll kill you!”, he wrenches the top off a marble table and in a feat of almost super human strength hurls it at Hélène.
Hélène has the good sense to cut her losses and flees the scene whilst the going’s good.

Separation seems inevitable. Pierre puts his affairs in order in under a week, signs over more than half his property to his unfaithful wife, and departs for St Petersburg alone.

Recap of this week’s 6 chapters to assist me:

1. Nikolai’s return, family scene
2. Nikolai return on the town, Count Rostov party prep
3. Bagration dinner
4. Pierre/Dolokhov
5. Duel
6. Pierre/Helene

I found the start of the book a bit deja vu, with Nikolai Rostov managing the expectations of feelings between him and Sonya much better than Pierre did, with his “courtship” of Helene! It was a good comparison I thought.

I had assumed Nikolai Rostov‘s “lady acquaintance on the boulevard” who he visited every evening was a courtship, but then the second chapter refers to it as “going there“. How can he be considered the best suitor in town as well?! Did they not know about STDs in those days?

I like how Tolstoy “plays us” as an author, like when he writes Count Rostov’s fortunes were good that year… because he’s remortgaged his estate. “Got me in the first half” as the meme goes. I was actually quite happy thinking maybe he got lots of return on land! I’m reading the more literal translation by Pevear and Volokhonsky. Would be interested to see how Briggs phrases it?

I found the party interesting, for how they discussed the war and their “Angel in the Flesh” Alexander. More delusion on a wide scale, and slandering the people dying with them, the Austrians and Germans. It’s like they consider them less favourably than their actual enemy, the French. I fear more the internal tumult that comes with conflict, a country needs their nationalism and pride to enter the foolishness that is war, but it leads to tribalism and defining who is us and who is not, “batten down the hatches, neighbours turning on each other. I was reading the WW2 evacuee thread and Michael Caine and Barbara Windsor’s experiences, it’s horrible. People fighting over rations, non-white people not considered part of the war effort.

I love how Tolstoy captures eternally relatable minutiae, like Bagration entering and the awkward pause of who goes first through the door! Like a Two Ronnie sketch. Or the intense shame Pierre felt when he knew the three young handsome men opposite him were talking about him.

I found the existence of the English club interesting, given Napoleon’s view that the Austro-Russian effort is English driven. A bit like Putin pushing on being “surrounded” by the West? My history of Napoleon era is not good though, so don’t know the nuances, I’m just relating my thoughts to current events. Which certainly is at the forefront of my mind as I read. This friction between Russian, Austrian, Germany seems to have existed a long time, even as allies against Napoleon

Are we sure Helene was unfaithful, she said she wasn’t? Again, maybe me applying my modern sensibilities of #IBelieveHer, but even in context, shagging Dolokhov doesn’t seem worth the social cost.

“A depraved woman”. Now I’m even more interested in the cut out wedding night chapter! Especially given how we were so in Pierre’s (stupid) internal monologue during the courtship. Did he think she was a bit too savvy or something to be a virgin on the wedding night?

Not sure what to make of the Anatole-Helene references. It’s from Pierre’s internal monologue again, and I have no respect for the giant, abusive buffoon at all. We know he’s socially deficient (awkward is too soft a word) and doesn’t get social cues or understand what’s going on, as he’s away with the fairies like at the English club party for Bagration.

Wasn’t too interested in the duel myself. Silly men doing silly things. I like neither the cruel criminal Dolokhov nor Pierre.

I like daily reading, really allows it to all sink in. I’m also immensely enjoying these threads. I always thought I’d like a book club, but probably wouldn’t be able to regularly commit or I’ve heard people don’t actually discuss book and only socialise, or flake attending. This thread means we can come and go through the year.

I’ll finish today by saying - you go girl Helene, make that shitty system work for you!

Thank you for your summary Desdemona! That was a fraught chapter. Pierre and Hélène are fundamentally unsuited to each other. I'm not surprised they are separating. I'm not sure either if Hélène was unfaithful to Pierre. It might be jealousy on his part. 'Poking the bear' is a very good analogy! She really roused him to anger.

Interesting post, BakeOff! I will have a look at the remortgaging part and see how Briggs phrases it.

From Briggs for BakeOff. Reference to remortgaging in red.
I like Tolstoy's sarcastic tone when he talks about Nikokay dressed up in the latest fashions, all paid for by his father. 'Now look at him!'

Loved these last few chapters.

Maude has ‘The old count had money enough that year, as all his estates had been remortgaged’.

I’ve been rooting for Pierre here, through the duel and the remorse though I’m not finding Helène convincing. There’s a footnote in my copy to say that in early drafts of the novel Helène and her brother Anatole had been in ‘guilty relations’ with each other but this was almost all edited out.

Here’s the Pevear and Volokhonsky first page of chapter 2. Briggs still conveys the spendthrift showcasing overall, even if he chose not to directly translate the relief of having enough, then overhanging doom of huge mortgages in one sentence.

Many thanks to my toddler for having a lie in and allowing me to properly reflect over this week’s chapters and write loads!

I like the phrase from Maude; 'The old count had money enough that year...'

Whoops forgot to attach sorry. Pevear and Volokhonsky first page of chapter 2.

@BakeOffRewatch

Whoops forgot to attach sorry. Pevear and Volokhonsky first page of chapter 2.

That's so interesting! Nikolushka and his new trotter!!

@BakeOffRewatch I have so much to say but it is all definitely a spoiler so I will sit on my hands. Helene though is a Kuragin and we’ve seen her father and Anatole and whilst in real life we would never judge someone by their relations I think that Tolstoy shows us the way that they operate for a reason. Pierre is a dolt and she manipulated that conversation to her own ends -separation with a hugely generous financial package-He may not love her but she also does not love him. He could have been in control of that situation, her options would have been limited, but he wasn’t. What I will say is aristocratic women taking lovers was not unusual, in the same way the men are seeing prostitutes or having mistresses. There is a line in Anna Karenina (and it might just be in one of the many adaptations but I am sure it’s in the book too) where Vronsky’s mother tells him that every young man needs a married lover, it is the making of him, but his affair has gone too far. I mean literature isn’t robust historical evidence but it does have some usefulness.

I’d also say that this is a book predominantly about men with a few exceptions.

The remortgaging is stated as that I think. The implication is that he has remortgaged so has ready money, but is also in a huge amount of debt because all his properties are mortgaged.

Dolokhov IMO shot with intent but wasn’t he practically on the floor when he was stuffing snow into his mouth. He missed because he was injured I think.

@IsFuzzyBeagMise, it is interesting but difficult, e.g. I don’t really know what a trotter is, I assumed a horse, racing horse gets across the point much more easily. Thanks for sharing the Briggs.

@StColumbofNavron thanks for holding off on spoilers , must be really hard! I get that it’s about men, but I’m a 30-something woman reading it in 2022 after a pandemic and the start of euro-russian conflict; as much as reading it and interpreting the author’s (of his wife the editor’s) intention is fun, I think interpreting classics in relation to the times is part of their maturity/aging and evolution as a time-honoured tome. Very interesting about the married lovers, I don’t know much about Russia or it’s history or cultural history at all, so I don’t know how moralistic or religious it was.

He missed because he was injured yes, this is how I read it.

StColomb you are definitely right to say she manipulated him.

Thanks for sharing the Briggs Any time! I enjoy comparing translations.

I agree we inevitably read it in our context. I do have an unusually high tolerance for seeing things on their own terms which perhaps comes from studying history but also I think is my natural approach. That said, reading is about the readers interpretation and not the writers intention really.

I think religion plays a large in 19th century Russian society and obviously that differs from person to person. That said, I think a lot of time was given to devotional practices, name days, attending the liturgy etc, it didn’t necessarily filter out behaviours I don’t think. Even Marya, who is religious, doesn’t condemn Madame Bourienne for what is out of marriage contact with a man who she knows is supposed to marry her mistress. That’s partly because of Marya’s character but I think also tells us something about the use of religion - in her case charity is alluded to.