War and Peace Readalong thread 2022 - thread 2

[VikingNorthUtsire]

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classics-Tolstoy/dp/0099512246/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

NB also this link for the kindle version: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classic-Russians-ebook/dp/B005CUS9AG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Signet-Classics-Tolstoy-ebook/dp/B001RWQVXA/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Penguin-Popular-Classics-ebook/dp/B0033805UG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

at wavishing Desdemona and thanks for all the entertaining chapter summaries.

I hadn’t picked up on the timing continuity issues!

Really enjoyed reading this block, it’s nice to come back to old friends, the investment of breaking into the book is definitely paying off. Very hard to read the gambling scene though, I hope Dolokhov gets what he deserves. I think it’s interesting how Nicholas has been presented, I feel ambivalent but can’t help liking and rooting for him despite, perhaps because of, the golden boy confidence and sense of entitlement as well as feeling slightly resentful for the same reasons.

Spoilers seem to be an occupational hazard, my biggest bugbear with my copy is how much is given away in chapter headings but even in the cast list which I relied on heavily early on and includes plot details even further ahead than we are now. Also my own fault for unnecessary internet browsing especially on the bbc series website.

I’m already thinking I’ll want to come back to the book and have been wondering if a re-readalong in a couple of years would work? (If we stick with it through the philosophy and finish)!

I really hated Denisov proposing to Natasha so soon after Lise’s death. Natasha is what, 14? How old was Lise? I don’t find child marriage charming at all, and Denisov proposing, unable to control himself, casts him in a really poor light, when at that time marriage, sex and pregnancy presented very real risks (unless you were savvy or “depraved” like Helene). What did Lise’s face say - how could you do this to me? I never hurt anyone? How could Denisov want to do that to her, Natasha never hurt anyone? I appreciated Countess Rostov’s appropriate reaction.

I recognised Nikolai’s youthful turmoil, when there’s a way you want to be, but you act differently. We’ve seen the company he keeps and I think situations like that are when young people learn the impact of the people they spend time with, in that crux of time between being their parents child and their own person in the world with their own circles.

It’s interesting what everyone is saying about re reading and really enjoying it. Im not enjoying it so much a chapter a day, it feels very chore like. But I don’t think I would have ever stuck with it through the first bit without this exercise. I look forward to reading it more fluidly in the future.

Natasha is 16 I think, but your points are really any less valid by an extra two years.

I thought Sonya was 16 and Natasha 14 in this bit, having aged a year from when we met them at 15yo and 13yo just before Nikolai left for the army.

Oh maybe, I thought it said she was 16, but I could have made that up 😂. I’m a few chapters behind.

Frankly given Tolstoy's elastic timelines, she could be 25 by now!

😂 @Sadik I’m trying not to overthink, but it’s not the type of reader I am!

Looking forward to you catching up and your historical tidbits @StColumbofNavron, and any good links @SanFranBear might have.

There was a news article on BBC news this week about the village of Vosnesensk destroying its own bridge. Really reminded me of the first war chapters. It brought home to me how eternal are Tolstoy’s themes.. Do you remember the family crossing over with the soldiers looking greedily at the mum and daughter? www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60840081

@BakeOffRewatch I've been reading in chunks and just catching up with the thread daily. It works better for me that way. I read ahead and then stop when I get to a good place. When the thread catches up, I'll read a bit more. I'm really enjoying reading the thread and also hadn't noticed the time.

I was quite disappointed in Denisov proposing to his "sorsowess". I liked him & his extravagant dancing and the proposal has put me off a bit.

Onwards to part 2!

Yes. There must be quite an age gap. It took me by surprise too.
I read a few chapters at a time to get into the story. Otherwise i don't feel very engaged with it.

It was me that thought she was 16, but having done a quick search she is more like 14 or 15, which is a bit grim given the age difference. I don't think we're told how old Denisov is but I imagine him to be at least in his early 30's. So probably at least twice her age. (Although I do think, if she'd said yes he'd have waited for her and cherished Natasha, certainly far more than Andrei did Lise.)

It seems obscene to modern readers but I don't think we can view marriage in early 1800's Russia through a modern prism:

In Russia, before 1830 the age of consent for marriage was 15 years old for males and 13 years old for females[35] (though 15 years old was preferred for females, so much so that it was written into the Law Code of 1649).[36] Teenage marriage was practiced for chastity. Both the female and the male teenager needed consent of their parents to marry because they were under 20 years old, the age of majority. In 1830, the age of consent for marriage was raised to 18 years old for males and 16 years old for females.

Grade Savers Analysis of the Section we've just read. (Spoilers removed)
They put Natasha's age at 15 btw.

Analysis
Although the previous sections of War and Peacece^_ have included a broad scope of characters and settings, the first part of Volume II is very different. It focuses almost exclusively on the Rostov family, and is structured around Nikolai Rostov’s moral downfall. Tolstoy accompanies this tightened structure with a decrease in length. This section is half the length of the previous sections and its chapters are much shorter—especially at the end of the section. These changes in structure help create the illusion of time hurtling forward more quickly, a shift that reflects the chronology of the events in this section as well as the sense of inevitable doom that hangs over Nikolai’s actions.
In Volume I, Nikolai changes dramatically from the dreamy, innocent young man he seems to be at the Rostovs’ first dinner party. In his first battle, he is terrified and wants nothing to do with war’s carnage. Yet, by the second battle, Nikolai pursues glory as single-mindedly as Prince Andrei Bolkonsky, having been swept up in intense hero-worship of the tsar. However, none of these changes are obviously disgraceful, even if they do show a new aggression and self-aggrandizement.
This changes at the beginning of Volume II. Almost immediately upon coming home, Nikolai loses interest in Sonya, who is still passionately in love with him and oblivious to any change. His desire to give up her pure, innocent love in favor of exploring his options with other women is, in retrospect, the first sign of the moral weakness that will lead him to lose his fortune to Dolokhov. In both scenes, Nikolai’s inability to abstain from traditional male vices – gambling and casual sex – brings him low.
In the few glimpses that this section offers of the other main characters, the plot developments seem to parallel Nikolai’s downward spiral. Lise Meinenn and Sonya have a lot in common. Both are attractive women who Tolstoy nevertheless avoids portraying as romantic leads – his repeated references to Lise’s mustache and Sonya’s mood swings ensure that they will never possess the same raw sexual power as Natasha Rostovv.
Although Tolstoy certainly has no qualms about describing his characters explicitly, in this section he relies less on direct description and more on using people’s responses to situations to reveal their characters. Consider, for example, Pierre and Dolokhov’s contrasting attitudes at the beginning of the duel. Dolokhov intentionally projects steely confidence and does not worry much about taking Pierre’s life, a response that shows his callous cruelty as well as his calculating, manipulative streak. Pierre, on the other hand, is shocked by the reality that one person will not come away from the fight alive, and even more so when he sees that he has gravely hurt Dolokhov. Despite the low self-worth that led Pierre to suggest the duel in the first place, he has a sense of human decency that Dolokhov lacks. Likewise, Prince Nikolai and Princess Marya Bolkonsky’s responses to the news that Andrei is missing showcase their different personalities. Prince Nikolai is pessimistic and risk-averse (traits that we also saw in Anatole’s proposal scene), whereas Marya is willing to undergo more suffering later if she can enjoy a glimmer of hope in the moment.
Pierre has grown more and more to be the moral center of the novel. His situation with Hélène parallels the basic conflict he has confronted from the beginning: a spiritual life vs. a material one. He chose poorly when he chose to marry a beautiful, 'respectable' bride, and here pays for it. Part of his disgust at having triumphed in the duel is attributable to his realization that he does not love the woman who ostensibly caused the fight. Further, there is little in the novel to suggest he is overly-concerned about reputation. In other words, in confronting Dolokhov to a duel, he has fallen into a system of expectations, even if the cause, his loveless marriage, is irrelevant. Therefore, it is quite telling that he gives up a significant amount of money in order to purchase his freedom. In doing so, he is acknowledging that spiritual fulfillment is superior to material concerns. He has grown up from the rowdy young man of Volume I, but what both the young and old Pierre have in common is that they are searching for happiness, and attempting to discover how to achieve that - through the world or through the spirit.

From Gradesaver
Volume II Part 2

Chapter 1
On his way to St. Petersburg, Pierre spends the night at a posting station so he can change horses. He is very disturbed over his separation from Hélène and tries to intellectualize the things that have recently happened to him. A strange old man with a death’s-head signet ring also arrives at the posting station. The man intrigues Pierre, but also makes him slightly uncomfortable.

Are you reading for the first time too @IsFuzzyBeagMise?

@BakeOffRewatch

Are you reading for the first time too *@IsFuzzyBeagMise*?

Yes, I am @BakeOffRewatch. I am a complete newbie, finding out as I go along!

Thank you Desdemona. That was a really good commentary.

That summary of the last part was fascinating and highlighted things that I think I knew but hadn't really taken in... thanks Desdemona.

The fact Pierre fights a duel over a woman he doesn't even love was really interesting to me (so obvious and explains his rage so well but I hadn't twigged at all).

The first chapter today, inside Pierres head, builds on that and was great. Looking forward to reading on - and hope we also find out more about Deaths Head Ring man as he's very intriguing.

I really do appreciate the summaries etc on here - they pick up so many things that I miss. I’m another one where the timeline discrepancies had gone completely over my head ‘.

The analysis is really helpful and I had a bit of a penny drop moment. I felt that I was picking holes in the characters and feeling that their actions were inconsistent or implausible - but that's exactly what Tolstoy wants us to see. So when I'm thinking - that's an utter dick move - that's what I'm supposed to be thinking. I was with Sadik on being pissed off with Nokolai being near tears then acting all nonchalant with his father, but according to the analysis, that's just me picking up on his moral weakness.

I guess the disadvantage of reading it for the first time is that you have no idea where the cues are leading. And the signalling is quite clumsy in places, but I do think he's trying to convey quite complex personalities which feels quite modern for its time.

Really appreciating the thread, the summaries, the comments and the company, thanks all.

From Gradesaver
Volume II Part 2

Chapter 2
The man with the ring is Osip Alexeevich Bazdeevv_, a noted Freemason. The Freemasons made up a secret society based around both helping others and celebrating the brotherhood of man. In the early nineteenth century, they also had a political and religious element that was very controversial in some countries. Pierre and Bazdeev have a conversation of great importance to the young man. Although Pierre does not believe in God, Bazdeev inspires him to consider joining the Masons by appealing to Pierre's desire for a higher purpose, and by reinforcing Pierre's shame over his amoral lifestyle in Moscow.

I don't remember Free Masonry at all in my previous read through... I am genuinely concerned for my memory.

Not sure it's the right path for Pierre but perhaps reining in his excess will help him get more pleasure from his life. It must be nice to be a man of leisure and to be able to do whatever you want, within reason. Oh, to have pockets full of money - its the dream!! A dream that I bet old Count Rostov is having at the moment....

I know what you mean @SanFranBear in that it seems so bizarre and almost trippy that it doesn't seem to belong to the rest of the story. Pierre is such a lost soul, I like how Tolstoy explores this avenue for him, it seems very believable. I think the portrayal of the Masons contains touches of humour and even absurdity but I may have read on a chapter or two

From Gradesaver
Volume II Part 2

Chapter 3
Pierre arrives in St. Petersburg and tells nobody. However, soon after his arrival, a Polish count named Willarski comes to his house with an invitation to join the Masons. Pierre agrees and accompanies the Count to the Mason clubhouse, where one of Pierre’s acquaintances, Smolyaninovv_, explains to him the tenets of Freemasonry and asks whether they align with Pierre’s views. These tenets involve: keeping the Mason secrets; helping members find wisdom through sharpening their reason and faith; attempting to "oppose the evil that reigns in this world" (357); accepting and loving death; and showing generosity and good morals. These virtues mostly align with Pierre's worldview; although Pierre admits he is an atheist, this doesn’t seem to bother Smolyaninov. As a final part of the induction ritual, Pierre undresses, donates the valuables he has on him to the Masons, and tells Smolyaninov his greatest vice (women). He is accepted into the society.

Gosh, this whole freemason initiation ritual is NOT where I was expecting the plot to go.

Haha quite.

Was anyone else surprised/confused that Pierre said his greatest vice was 'women'? I really didn't see him as a womaniser or even a flirt, he's so awkward. It could refer to him frequenting brothels I suppose though that seems out of character too.

Yes I was also really surprised that was the answer he gave!