The Unconditional Parent -- is this bollocks or for real?

[oregonianabroad]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but am torn between thinking it is totally revolutionary, and then the next minute I think the guy is smoking crack and wouldn't last 2 minutes with my ds. (of course, he would have an answer for that, another of the things that turns me off about his argument).

It also seems clear that he evaluated all the books on the market and decided to write one with a radically different approach (a discipline book about how not to use rewards/ time outs??? how novel!).

SInce I bought the book on the basis of a few recommendations here, I am interested to hear what you lot think.

I only ate one small one from a batch that looked overcooked, just to check they weren't too dry

Can you give more detail on your fab day. Any incidents that you know you handled differently than you would have before reading the book?

You're a better woman than me, Otherside, I would have scoffed the lot!

I'll try and think of a specific example, but in general I am so much more relaxed and I negotiate a lot more. If something doesn't really matter, I let it go. I am a lot less bothered about 'being firm' and just enjoying being with him. Instead of jumping straight to a consequence, I am spending more time explaining things calmly. And, more than anything else, I am telling him I love him a lot more, and telling him that I love him even when he's naughty (which he repeats, so I now know it's important). I can honestly see that he has changed the way he sees himself - it is as though, by getting annoyed with him, he thought we didn't love him because he was unloveable and set about trying to prove how unloveable he could be, which made us all the more annoyed. When I read this in the book, I admit I was sceptical, and defensive even, but I have seen this transformation take place.

A couple of examples: we used to argue and struggle about getting in the car seat. Now he gets in the car first but goes in the driver's seat and pretends to 'drive' the car while I get everything sorted and ds2 strapped in. Then he has a choice, either he gets in his seat himself or I'll lift him in (this always motivates him to get in the seat).

Another one: we often tussle about his clothing requirements, as he is particularly attached to a red t-shirt, which he wears literally everyday (we have to wash it out and hang it every night -- again, minor in comparison to the rows we used to have about wearing something else) and he likes it to be on show. Today, it was bitter cold in the park, but he insisted he was OK and didn't need his coat. I explained I was worried about him catching cold and asked him again to put it on. He refused. Now, this was the point I found most difficult, but I just let him go out in the cold and I hung the coat, scarf, hat, & jumper over the pushchair. I kept asking if he wanted to put them on, and then realised he wanted to be the one to decide when to out them on, so I shut up. In about 3 minutes he was ready and got bundled up.

Last one: He likes to 'help' me put his little brother to sleep, which used to mean be as big a nuisance as possible, shouting as loudly as possible, so dh and I used to keep them seperated at bedtime (after a joint bath). SInce he has expressed how important it was to him, I negotiated that he could stay as long as he used his quiet voice. He now loves to 'shush' his baby brother off to sleep, and does it quietly to boot, and he gets (well-deserved) praised for putting him to sleep. You should've seen the ear-to-ear grin on his face tonight.

The other thing is, saying 'no' or using the 'firm' voice less makes it much more significant when it is used.

I honestly can not believe how much he has changed over the last few weeks. A very close friend said 'you've got your sweet boy back,' and she couldn't be more right. Perhaps some parents might think I am being a pushover, letting him get away with some of this stuff, but really, what harm does it do? And if we are all getting along better and can see a dramatic difference as a result, well, I for one am sold on Kohn's methods (or should that be Sir Kohn?!).

I hope I haven't bored you with all of this! Hope you enjoy reading the book and find it useful.

Very pleased for you

Thanks, slur.

Oregonian, I was tempted to have more than one but don't think I could have managed 30!

Your long post wasn't boring at all. I have only read the introduction of the book so far but found what he had to say about the 'big picture' so true. We get bogged down in duties sometimes.

My main problems at the moment come from DS having got used to doing things like getting dressed and getting in the car when he felt ready for it when I was a SAHM with two little ones. So he got used to doing things in his own time and ever since he started school last September, it has been hard to get him to do things quickly when asked. But he can't read the time yet so it is too early to hand over responsability to him completely.

I was way less controlling when we didn't HAVE to do anything in the day but I get stressed about being late now.

Annie I am really glad you have read the book as I am sure you can imagine it is frustrating trying to discuss it with people that haven't! About the 'weak' parenting thing, I don't think being flexible is synonymous with weakness - to coin a dodgy analogy, it is the rigid unbending tree that will snap in a high wind. I think modelling compromise and negotiation to your children does them a great favour and is not a sign of weakness. I do know what you mean about certain things being non-negotiable for YOU as a parent though and there are loads of things that are like that for me as a parent. I am quite conventional and often feel the crumbling civilisation thing that Avi describes so beautifully. I think it is fine to make decisions that you are comfortable with and be firm on the others - I wouldn't do the clothes thing either if I could avoid it - as long as you keep questioning "Does it really matter if this happens? is it really worth putting my foot down over?"

I totally know what you mean, Otherside. I am going back to work in January and things will be more difficult to negotiate then.

And I probably could have managed 30 fairy cakes. just about!

Oregonian - your post was so interesting. it was really inspiring to see how the ideas in the book can work in real life. I could never think of examples when i was reading it. Your ds sounds lovely! Its so sad to think that we can make our children think that we dont love them. I know that when my ds (10mo) dosnt go to sleep when i am exhausted, and decides to climb all over me instead, i was getting a bit angry and annoyed with him. Now i'm trying to appreciate this time with him (in the middle of the bloody night!!!) and i keep thinking that in 10 years time he wont want to cuddle and be silly with me, so I'll make the most of it now and go and tickle his feet to make him laugh!

I think he says a lot of the same things as Jesper Juul (your competent child),does he not?

Well, I am more than half way through and so far it makes a lot of sense.

Anyone else reading the book since this thread started?

Oregonian, are you still watching this thread?

Finished the book.

Some of the things come naturally to me, ie not forcing DD to wear her coat because I am cold.

But some of them don't.

I definitely rely on 'consequences' rather than punishments in day to day life with DS who is 4.

For example, in the bath today he kept putting bubbles on his sisters hair. I explained several times that when he does this she has to have her hair rinsed (extremely sensitive skin). She gets very upset when we rinse her hair. He continued doing it. Usually I would take him out of the bath immediately which Alfie Kohn would see as a punishment and DS would.

This time I let him stay in, reminding him that DD would not like having her hair rinsed. He continued.
So I had to rinse DDs hair. While I was rinsing it and she was crying, DS threw a cup of water at me and kicked DD. I took him out straight after he kicked DD and while I was drying him explained that kicking hurts and that it is not the way to stop someone crying.

While I was explaining this he wasn't really listening because as soon as I finished he said 'my belly button is an insy'

This infuriated me so then I made him listen again until he could repeat what I had said. I had to repeat myself 3 times. So definitely ended up saying too much.

Should I have waited until he was more attentive to bring up the subject? But he is so often absorbed in his own world and at school all day so the next time might not have been until tomorrow night.

I am not sure how to combine the 'unconditional parenting' approach with the 4 year old boy who doesn't listen.

Any advice?

Um... this is why I hate the book (yes, I have read it), Otherside. Because I don't think it gives you a clue what to do in the situation you describe.
However, reading the discussion of people here who are fans and reckon they are implementing the ideas to great benefit, I think they would say that you are allowed to "put your foot down" and not allow behaviour that is simply unacceptable (like upsetting your other child so much). If reasoned discussion doesn't work, then removing the child from bath is ok.

I heard a very interesting discussion on the radio the other day, about what motivates children from observation and research studies on the social development of empathy... guess what, it wasn't reasoned discussion or asking them to empathise with your priorities! The only thing that really got thru consistently was negotiation and compromise-- you do this for me, I'll do this for you, I'll concede on this point ifyou give in something on that one, etc. Apparently this is the only truly effective tactic until the end of the teenage years.

I just find that sort of "ideology" much easier to understand and act on.

otherside, I won't second guess Alfie but I don't see a problem with your removing your ds from the bath once you made it clear he was not to do it and he continued.

It is not a punishment. It is completely linked to the offending behaviour. It is not arbitrary eg denying him his pudding for splashing his sister in the bath or confiscating his toys.

Hmmm, maybe I misread it. I have started rereading again already as there is too much to take in on a first reading.

I don't do arbitrary punishments but I do cope a lot through natural consequences but I felt when reading the book that many of the natural consequences I have been relying on would all the same be interpreted as a punishment by the child.

Perhaps the difference is in the way you carry out the consequence. ie a whole of difference between saying gently 'your sister will be upset if I have to rinse her hair so to avoid this I have to remove you from the bath'
and 'right that's it, out you come' because you have lost patience with child not complying.

What about the issue of 4 year old boys who are so good at tuning you out?

Message withdrawn

I don't think this is an AK thing, but I would say "you can stay in the bath and keep the bubbles away from dd's hair, or you can come out of the bath"

(well in reality I would probably do screeching but I think the above is a reasonable way to deal with it)

I no way would let one child go on do something that was going to have unpleasant consequences for the other child

Yes, in hindsight, I should have been more "controlling" and got DS out of the bath so DD didn't have to go through the torture of having her hair rinsed.

And of course I made sure she was over that and happy again before I talked to DS about it.

It didn't help my judgement of the situation that she was enjoying him putting bubbles on her hair but then she is only just 3 so of course lives entirely in the present. With siblings seems that things move so fast it isn't possible to think it through properly each time.

On the plus side I am pleased to say that I resisted the urge to say no when DS decided he wanted to play with a box of polystyrene packaging beads he found in the garage on the way in from school. So they made it 'snow' and it was a lot of fun AND they helped clear up quite happily!

I normally would not agree to such a messy activity at 5pm in case they were too tired to clear up.

otherside, you sound like a lovely mum

I agree with the theory but could do with more help in acheiving the practice, which seems pretty impossible for anyone with a modicum of stress or a contemporary lifestyle, or a surly temperament. So sometimes it can make me feel inadequate. Other times it's just something to aspire to. I think he's great though.

yes I bet AK would have made some grumpy excuse why not to get the packing beads out

Thanks for the compliment. I'm a lot better mum since I discovered oil of evening primrose

Reading the book has made me think alot and in a different way about certain things we do.

I don't think in practice it is possible to always take the time it would require to be an unconditional parent. But it helps to have the understanding in the back of your head.

I have bit my tongue a couple of times over the last couple of days because of this book and that's a good thing.

I like Alfie Kohn and have read a couple of his books, I agree with what he writes. I'm usually like that with my children and have never used punishments and I don't like stickers as rewards etc but I'm not perfect and so shout now and again. I do intend not to and don't do it as a matter of course though.

Sorry, I've only just seen this otherside -- I was with the out-laws & collecting my dad.

I think I would've handled the situation in much the same way, although I think your own softer, gentler statement is a good strategy for next time.

I have found myself in similar situations a lot, so coming back to this thread is really helpful.

Somedays I rely more on 'consequence' type strategies than others, it just depends.