The Unconditional Parent -- is this bollocks or for real?

[oregonianabroad]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but am torn between thinking it is totally revolutionary, and then the next minute I think the guy is smoking crack and wouldn't last 2 minutes with my ds. (of course, he would have an answer for that, another of the things that turns me off about his argument).

It also seems clear that he evaluated all the books on the market and decided to write one with a radically different approach (a discipline book about how not to use rewards/ time outs??? how novel!).

SInce I bought the book on the basis of a few recommendations here, I am interested to hear what you lot think.

Yes small children are very annoying at times to many of us I think

but much of the time they are just being children - our expectations are too high - unrealistic and tbh unfair

this is a slow journey towards socially acceptable and mature behaviour

they don't always have to get it right now - they can't always get it right now. But we tend to punish and withhold affection when they (inevitably) behave like children instead of small and very obedient adults

I see your point Franny but let's face it, who is ever ready to clean and tidy up if there's someone doing it for you all the time? I was never ever made to do it, not my toys, not my plates after dinner, nothing. And I never ever did it until there was no one to do it for me. Although I see what this as tought me I as the mum do not want to be a slave to my kids till they leave home, and if I have a boy I want to make sure that he does not expect his DP to do it for him. I guess my mum didn't care as much because we had a cleaner everyday so although she was doing a lot she wasn't doing it all. I know this is just an example but I find that the punishments come about for the things that, really, no one would want to do, children and adults alike.

Does dd not want to help you when she sees you doing things around the house? Do we not have faith that left to their own devices, children will want to and can become useful members of society under their own steam, without a constant stream of sanctions and demands?

with tidying up I have tended to do it with them, giving them specific things to do rather than just a vague tidy up instruction, then we get it done more quickly. They now quite often tidy of their own accord

I think the real revelation for me from this book and the 'how to talk so your child will listen...' book was realising that children are as entitled as we are to feel fed up, confused, tired, emotional etc and that looking at things from their perspective really does help

Pippi in your example your mum did not do the cleaning. She paid someone else to do it. Is it surprising that you learnt as a child that cleaning is nasty and unpleasant and we try to avoid it when we can?

(btw I hate cleaning too, but you see what I mean? there is another way...)

My ds1 is the same age and has a new brother, so we are dealing with the same rivalry issues as well.

When he does something repeatedly that is dangerous(e.g throwing a heavy toy at baby's head the nanosecond my back is turned, hiting, etc...), I do give him a time-out. I admit, this strategy is not working. But I feel that it is wrong not to try to make him understand that this is not OK and someone could get hurt.

I also explain this in words too. Just tonight I did a lengthy role-play with bears at bed time to illustrate the point that hitting is not OK. However, since he had hit me several times with a heavy toy while I was running the bath, we did miss out bath time.

I just am not sure what approach to take.

have not read this book, but I personally don't think that time out etc work anyway

dd1 would be distraught when sent to her room/stair so I did it mayby twice. I would have to explain things to her (in an patience sapping way) with a cuddle

dd2 just makes a "yeah? and?" face and carries on doing what she was doing. Have not worked out what will work with her as yet...

depends on the child how you discipline imo

I'm not saying here that punishment is used all the times here, in fact I thing time out is needed once a month if ever and I'd always try to explain and def find other ways to deal with issues but there are limits. I am sorry but I would not tolerate hitting, not between siblings and def not to other children in the park. if that would be my child after more than once incident, if did not improve after explaining and what you suggested Psycobabble, I'd remove him/her from the place and from the kids. not fair on the others.

ima,
I found HTTSKWL much easier to relate to tho, as they suggest praise and other methods. I don't actually get how Alfie expects us parents to get our kids to behave in socially acceptable ways except to simply wait till they do it of their own accord.

No I wouldn't tolerate hitting either, not at all. Kohn does not suggest you should have no boundaries and put up with all unacceptable behaviour, people are misunderstanding here.

But he does suggest that normal child behaviour like hitting should not be punished by withdrawal of love, time outs, or other punishments.

Pippi,
I agree with you, but Alfie wouldn't.

Kohn is not a quick fix. There aren't easy solutions that you could show on a TV programme for instance, or sum up in a few simple points.

Bringing up a child to be a socially aware and responsible person is the work of decades, surely? Not two minutes on the naughty step whenever they cross a boundary.

F & Z,
I may be misunderstanding, but I would really like to understand how this works???? How should I handle Ds1 in example above then?

Oregonian are you saying that Kohn would say 'let the child go on hitting the other children?'

I think you must have misunderstood the book.

Yes, but you can't remove a child from his/her sibling
I haven't punished DS for pushing his sister about. He usually runs off because he knows it is wrong and once she has been comforted I go and find her and we have a cuddle/chat about it.
Now sometimes he comes back to her obviously remorseful before I have had a chance to find him. Hopefully one day he'll be able to control his emotions and the urge to push her around.

Haven't read the book btw but can't think of suitable consequences for hitting anyway.

No, I don't think he would say that, but I am not sure what he would suggest; and anyway, more to the point, I am not sure how I should or want to go about disciplining my dcs, if that makes sense.

I am also not sure if this book isn't undermining my confidence to the point where I can't think rationally about it anyway because I am feeling so defensive, iyswim.

perhaps I have already messed ds1 up so much by using these methods....arggghhhhh

but franny cleaning IS nasty and unpleasant. who does like and enjoys cleaning??? (please if there is someone I'll admit defeat.)admittedly I did enjoy it when I was single and would put the music on really loud once a week and sing and dance while doing the chores . but not when you HAVE to do it all the time! DD helps me out of course when we do things together but that's not the point. I do not want her to be a mini cleaner at this age or to help me out, what I do want is for her to understand that once SHE's played with HER lego HER lego go back into the box. that's it!

I do agree with the fact that children are as entitled as we are to feel fed up, confused, tired, emotional etc and that looking at things from their perspective really does help. obviously punishment only comes after having taken all the above into consideration.

but maybe I should get the book as I would not mind learn more re this.

That was a response to Pippi btw.

Cross posts

you have read it? or are you just started? It isn't something you can paraphrase in a few words, is it?

I would explain that the toy is hard and could hurt the baby. you've said the punishment isn't working. It could be that whatever tack you take at the moment is not going to prevent this behaviour. Your ds needs to mature enough to control his impulse to throw the things. In the meantime you can keep up the teaching that throwing can hurt, and that his brother would be sad. You don't have to teach him he is bad to not be able to resist the impulse every time.

So what is the overall tenet of the book then?I do try to give lots of praise and positive reinforcement,but at times do have to resort to a somewhat disciplinarian approach.(No smacking,I hasten to add.Sometimes do shout,though don't like myself for it).Note to self will try to read bookHope the pregnancy going OK f+Z

Oregonian please don't feel disheartened by the book. If what you have read is making you feel uncomfortable about some of the methods you have used, take this opportunity to change the things you don't like. You are obviously thoughtful and aware in your parenting and you can make changes if you are not happy with everything that you have tried so far.

Pippi I think if you want dd to have a happy attitude to cleaning and to do it when she is asked, then you need to find a way enjoy doing it together somehow. If you don't like it why should she - and should she really be learning that although housework stinks we all have to do it, at age 2? Seems a bit harsh almost

Another response to Pippi. What about not asking her tidy up but suggesting that you do a fun activity that requires clear floor space eg dancing
I find my DCs willing to join in the tidying up in this case and sometimes they are even the ones who say 'we'll have to put the Lego back in the box first'

I do not understand the 'withdrawal of love' bit. In my book there's never a withdrawal of love in this house. Punishment does not have to mean withdrawal of love, kids do not have to see it this way, why should they, unless you make them feel this way. like arguments betweek parents, or siblings, or friends they should be seen as part of any relationship not a withdrawal of love. it's not one or the other IMO. Or is it? please explain I am getting all confused now.

Book says

don't punish
don't reward
don't withdraw love for unacceptable behaviour
guide your child towards socially acceptable behaviour
model good behaviour
work on having a good relationship with them

ta dahhh

come on chaps, you need to read it really!