The Unconditional Parent -- is this bollocks or for real?

[oregonianabroad]

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but am torn between thinking it is totally revolutionary, and then the next minute I think the guy is smoking crack and wouldn't last 2 minutes with my ds. (of course, he would have an answer for that, another of the things that turns me off about his argument).

It also seems clear that he evaluated all the books on the market and decided to write one with a radically different approach (a discipline book about how not to use rewards/ time outs??? how novel!).

SInce I bought the book on the basis of a few recommendations here, I am interested to hear what you lot think.

100x LOL. we have the same thing in our house.

And the question is this.

Given that I have modeled the good behaviour by putting all the bloody shoes in the box when, oh when, are my little cherubs going to start copying me????

My DD has started doing it

She doesn't put any other bloody thing away

DS seems to be naturally neat and follows suit (well, he puts them in any box randomly near the shoes, but it is close enough)

fascinating thread, re withdrawal of approval/love. I think this one of the areas which concerns me most. My dd is a very ethical and moral little girl, she worries when someone does something hurtful or damaging to someone or something else. She struggles with her own emotions when she's done something damaging herself. By that I mean she'll maybe get cross, or cry or shout not at all unusal I'd have thought. Given this, showing disapproval of something she's done is a mixed bag,
Examples are useful I think but it's hard to come up with one that illustrates point best so forgive me if this one doesn't hold up to scrutiny...
She tries grabbing her brother, not maliciously, but she's feeling tangled up, a bit jealous, a bit bored, tired etc. so she's too rough. I most often might ask her to be gentle and explain that what she's doing is a bit rough, try distracting, ask her what's up and give her a cuddle. but if this doesn't work and she persists I'm likely to end up removing him or her from situation and explaining that if she wants to play gently then we'd be happy to play again..
Cue very upset, possibly shouting 'you're not my friend anymore!'
So... Does feel I'm withdrawing approval/love? probably I'd say. Would Kohn approach suggest different solution?

I think she sounds like a very sensitive little girl, Slur who possibly needs something extra to help her feel more accepted? I think what you describe sounds fine, but she perhaps isn't finding it fine. I don't have much experience with this, sorry. Hopefully someone else can advise.

DS tells me 'I'm not his mummy anymore' when I do something that he doesn't like or don't give into his whining. He doesn't want to love me when he is cross.

Doesn't answer your question but just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one. Surely this shows us something about how children experience their angry emotions and might interpret ours.

Othersideofthechannel I think you've hit nail on head there, angry feelings are too easily confused with dislike of person, (think I can relate to that as an adult ) So if I appear disapproving or cross with behaviour, even though I can really clearly describe and explain that it is the behaviour that I'm not pleased with it can still be interpreted that I am no longer happy with her ergo I am no longer her friend... so I don't like her much!!!! I don't think she really feels this at least it doesn't seem that way to me, but I think that's why it is so completely worth being incredibly clear about certain behaviours being unacceptable and why and not that she herself is unacceptable.

Franny - she is sensitive, and very attached, family has always meant an awful lot to her, she is also incredibly confident so I'm not overly worried - I think ultimately it's probably a good thing. it's interesting that she has a lot of empathy for others and is very affected by their upset to point where she wants to skip over bits in books where someone does something hurtful even when she knows its okay in the end and we reassure her lots.

The reason I bring up her empathy is in relation to idea of chn being motivated to do the right thing because of other's feelings or because being part of a community means sometimes thinking of others first as opposed to doing things because you'll get a sticker or praised or avoid punishment or whatever, am I right in thinking this is more Kohn's style or am I missing a bit here?
Point I'm struggling to make is that even through this kind of parenting (ie encouraging empathy etc over rewards/punishment) can still result in feelings of being disapproved of.

gosh slur your dd sounds like she should be my DT2's twin - they sound identical! She is so keen for everyone to be doing everything 'right' she really can't cope if she is asked to stop doing something wrong, which rarely happens as she acts far more mature than the rest of us but we always talk things through afterwards, once she's accepted that I will always be her friend, and she generally understands why I told her off...doesn't stop it happening again though! It is hard since DT1 is almost the exact opposite and often doesn't respond to a look or a quiet word, she needs it really spelling out to her so I feel like I'm always on her case. Its hard isn't it, this parenting stuff

Sure we'd all be nobel prize winner's if we didn't dedicate so much brain power to working out our dcs!

Really think it must be fairly usual as kids work out that being part of the world means what you say and do will impact on others. And I think around 2-4 they must be getting that idea.

Annoyingly, my rather annoying friend suggests in her rather annoying not-insulting-your-child-or-your-parenting-but.. way that dd is somehow neurotic and wound to tight to care about morality of situation! Bloody annoying friends why do you have them eh?

I think things are getting a little muddled here and I suspect my contributions are partially to blame .
I don't think people are divided between guilt-tripping their kids into obedience (if you don't tidy up, mummy will have to and then she will feel sooo sad and unappreciated boo hoo) and punishing their kids (if you don't tidy up then I will shout and freecycle the telly!).

I think it's a bit complex and subtle really, it seems the arguments centre around how to tell your child that what they are or are not doing is not in line with your desires without making them think they are in some way unloved or bad inherently.

So, some people are suggesting that by punishing (say, time-out) or even personal praise ('good girl') you may suggest that the way you feel about your dc is conditional upon their behaviour or achievements. Like, 'you've been too rough and now I don't want to be with you - go away' or 'I love you when you are clever and good - and therefore not when you're not?'

I think I'm confusing things because I've started discussing what do you say to chn when they do something inappropriate, for example, rough play. I was saying that at some point in the explanation you end up needing to explain that by pulling on ds neck like that it might hurt him, (not I hasten to add it might make me sad or worried or whatever) similarly, if you roar at another child (something which happens a fair bit with my dd) they might be scared because they don't neccessarily know you're playing etc.
In explaining you end up discussing feelings, who doesn't? it makes sense, but the emphasis is on the dc to understand and choose their behaviour because it is the right thing to do as opposed to do it because one's said if you roar at that child again then you won't be able to x,y,z.
I have of course, done that a lot too, and that is partly somehting I'm not feeling very comfotable with.

In a good way, 100x. (Thanks for checking!)

I like your point about the hazards of overemphasis on mummy's feelings, MP. Another note to self.

I also think slur is right on target: the question is how do we get our kids to behave in socially acceptable ways (Kohn might say we are trying to 'control' them) without otherwise screwing them up??? And I am slowly coming to the realisation that a mixture of styles is needed. Sometimes a heavy hand (when ds1 is jumping on top of ds2 or has taken off his car seat straps), sometimes we can have a lenthgy discussion about feelings (his and mine), sometimes we might have a little role-play with bears before bedtime about a topical issue ('this is Benjamin Bear and he sometimes plays too rough with his baby brother...'), and sometimes we can try distraction/channeling into more acceptable behaviour (I have managed to invent a new game so we can throw soft toys down the hall at a bulls' eye on the door, but nothing else can be thrown), and SOMETIMES NOTHING WORKS.

What we're all trying to do is instil self-discipline

I've read a bit more of the book and have come to the conclusion that you do need to read it all in order to get it.

No doubt true oregonianabroad and def fair point, I think I'll resturrect this thread or start another when I've read the book and can have a chance of knowing what I'm talking about - as opposed to usual

Ah, I have come very late to this thread and lots of people have already said all the stuff I wanted to say about how good unconditional parenting can be.

that said I did find myself last night having a very internal argument about how exactly to react when DS decided he didn't want to go to sleep last night: not in the top bunk, nor the bottom bunk, nor the spiderman readybed nor my bed. Explaining that he would be tired the next day didn't really work! And talking quietly with him when he was in his bed with the lights low didn't even get a yawn out of him. And forcing him to sleep with orders or threats when he so obviouosly wasn't going to go of his own accord goes against evey one of my principles.

Result? He came downstairs and joined us for supper, watched Dragon's Den with me and pinched all my poppadoms

Any advice on this one much appreciated - this is the first time I have come a cropper with unconditional parenting for a long time...I have a suspicion I might be facing the same tonight....

In a sense all parents are unconditional. We love our children whatever they do even if the murder or end up in prison. Love is unconditional like that.

Children like certainty so I think one thing too many parents do is chop and change their approach which is confusing for the child.

I am interested in whether people are like me (no punishments etc) because that is how we were brought up by our parents or whether it was instinctive in us anyway.

Squiffy - how old is your DS and what time does he have to get up in the morning?

Well, that was one of the most thought-provoking and useful threads I've read on MN for a while.

The tone of this thread suggests to me that Kohn must have truly hit upon something very close to all our hearts for the debate to remain so thoughtful and honest (oregon esp) throughout.

(Very much an aside and I have enjoyed reading your posts, but F&Z - presume you realise the notion that breastfeeding to sleep as detrimental to dental hygiene is not true? Just in case someone thought it was the case after reading that particular post.)

Squiffy and Issy,
lately my ds1 has been more demanding at night, and I have tried the following approach:
once he gets into bed, I tell him a little story about made-up characters who have done whatever he has done during the day (not too taxing on the imagination), and then I conclude by saying that his mummy and his daddy love him very much, etc...etc.. It is always this end bit that he askes me to repeat, and I am happy to indulge him. I have noticed that by doing this, the length of time I have to spend reassuring him has decreased significantly, and is much shorter now than when I attempted a firmer line ('go to sleep! now!' didn't have the magic somehow! I wonder why??). Not sure how it would work with older children but I hope this helps.

Thanks, Walnut. I am doing some real soul-searching this week and am feeling better about it as I reflect and give some new tricks time to work.

As for your question, Xenia, interestingly, I have also been reflecting a lot on the kind of parenting I recieved, which I think is part of the reason I have found this whole discussion so close to the bone. I was punished, in all sorts of ways, and am now remembering how much of my childhood I felt afraid, even though I am sure it would not have appeared that way to outsiders. I am not saying I was abused, but it is only now that I can clearly recall being pushed, pulled, dragged, my arm or hand squeezed, all out of anger. And anger is an emotion I am not very good at dealing with now as a parent. But I am working on it.

One last point, Xenia. Of course we know our love for our children is unconditional, but that is our own subjective experience. Children interpret our words and actions differently, and may end up feeling our love is conditional in the sense that we give it out only when they behave according to our rules, whether we have intended this or not.