Student 'can only do' 8.30-3.30

[SpringisSpringing]

I'm fairly new to teaching so I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be responsible for failing someone.

It's just not enough time. I don't get the chance to talk to her properly.

She's okay. Not great- but if I actually had time to mentor her she might get better!

On a slight side-issue, DH often has students telling him they can't attend lectures or tutorials because they are working. Their view is that they "have to earn money because... reasons." His view is that the course is full-time, that was made very clear at the start, and any work/childcare issues should be organised around that expectation - and certainly for teaching placements.

Yes, it might be that your children need to change school. Sometimes that is what is necessary to meet the requirements of work. I have known people move their children because another school has wraparound care which makes work possible, or hire a morning nanny, or move house or job or whatever. Surely you just have to be able to meet the requirements of the job- it really isn't the schools concern how you manage to get there and be there when required.

Someone mentioned switching childcare. We actually only have the one provider in our village who picks up and drops off at the village school.

So if that is the situation with childcare then a PGCE whilst in that situation isn't suitable.

Ultimately, the responsibility to arrange childcare is on the trainee.

I fancied a career break from teaching a few years ago and looked into going back to university. It would be MY responsibility to check we could mamage financially prior to applying. We couldn't manage so I didn't fo back to university. I wouldn't ditch my job, get a place at uni abd then expect uni to help me out with a handout. (But emergency financial support is different)

Ditto trainees. It is THEIR responsibility to sort childcare (but we all get emergencies happen). If childcare can't be sorted then maybe they aren't best placed to do the course.

So that would involve switching schools for the DC. Anything else you'd like me to do?

Why are you being arsey? People are telling you about realistically what it’s like to be a PGCE student in a school. It’s suprenely arrogant to expect schools to change everything around for you.

If childcare can't be sorted then maybe they aren't best placed to do the course.

Absolutely-and this is really down to the student to find out before they start the course. It’s a monumental waste of everyone’s time to start a course and then be ‘really surprised’ that the hours aren’t 8.30-3.30! Or to announce that their childcare can’t cope with them doing certain hours. If that’s the case, you need to make some changes or you can’t do the course. That would apply to any full time course you signed up for-you wouldn’t be able to just slope off at 3pm-expectations are clear.

Honestly astounded by the number of people who apply for teaching, a career with a reputation for long hours and high work load, and expect the career to adapt to fit them.

Totally agree with the previous poster who pointed out all the things you may have to do after school, and that’s before you even start marking. Meetings, CPD, meeting or phone parents, tidying up the classroom, setting up for the next day, just the start of it! And what about marking? How will you take home perhaps 90 books that need marking for the next day? Because this is the reality of the job.

I worked with a teacher who had to leave at 4 every day and it was so difficult to organise or plan anything. Then he’d start emailing me late in the evening wanting to discuss but sorry, that’s my switch off time. He seemed to think that I should work around his child care too.

Teaching is not family friendly. 8-4.30 are really the minimum. I do a couple of early finishes and a couple of 6pm finishes. This week I have a 7pm finish after a trip. I have spent 5 nights away with my class with no negotiation. I had a 6pm finish this week due to a meeting at another school that all staff had to attend. No negotiation. It is not family friendly.

Part time is hard to come by and even harder to manage. You miss your children’s assemblies and 3.30 meetings. Parents eve is two 7pm finishes per term. Then we have performances which are 8pm finishes, two per term. Oh and the discos which we help at, 8pm finish once per term.

Teaching is not family friendly and the huge numbers leaving profession illustrates the fact it is hard going. It does not adapt to fit you. If you can’t find childcare then I’m afraid our school would be recommending a different career.

Teaching isn't family friendly in term time. Teachers don't get to drop their kids and pick them up unless they are in the same school. Most teachers are in before 8......you work backwards to arrange the childcare. And most won't leave until at least 30 mins after the bell, many not for a couplenkf hours - the good thing is that even then, most teachers are home with thejr own kids by 5.30/6 not the 7/7.30 of other jobs. But big chunks of childcare before and/or after school are needed - by family or paid for providers - there is no avoiding it and its hard to imagine that anyone thinks they can avoid it.

If you want to arrive just before the bell and leave just after, be a TA not a teacher. You'll still need some childcare though unless your kids are in the same school.

MaisyPops totally agree.

Wombatchocolate you keep talking about jobs, but this isn’t a job it’s a placement.
I have moved house twice to be convenient to work. I’d be buggered if I’d have moved to accommodate the three school placements I had as a student, all in different counties and for 6 weeks only.
none of us know why this student leaves at 3.30. Perhaps she lives far away, perhaps she is around the corner and wants to get home early to mumsnet.

But it's irrelevant why they need to leave at that time.
Teaching does not end at 330.

I take workload issues with my trainees very seriously. I look for ways to lighten their load if they are really finding it tough. I'll give them ways to reduce markibg burdens ir speed up. I'll put their apologies in for meetings if an emergency happens. If they have a horrible commute by public transport, I'll cut them slack if leaving 15 mins early avoids an hour wait at a train station. If there are extenuating circumstances I'll help out as much as possible to help get them through.

But I wouldn't in a million years be bending over backwards for someone to leave on the bell because they've decided that's they hours that suit them. Sorry but that's not how teaching (or most workplaces!) worksm

Surely a simple conversation is all that is required. If no one has ever spelled out that leaving at 3.30 is creating problems, just maybe she doesn't know. A simple conversation is needed to ascertain what she is rushing off for, and then a conversation to work out possibilities based on that situation.....this can both recognise any needs she has about childcare etc and try to be accommodating, but also make clear that being there before/after school sometimes will be needed. These conversations should have happened at the start - all expectations clearly laid out. It is difficult to expect immediate change.....the course or school have not been clear enough, and worry about it being tricky for her, so keeping quiet, won't have helped. The conversation should also include making clear that once working and not on placement, it is usual for teachers to be in before and after school and that often compulsory meetings are scheduled. All of this should be obvious.....but its still the job of the course and mentors etc to spell it out.....always better sooner rather than later.

none of us know why this student leaves at 3.30.

I don't actually see that it matters why. She's not fulfilling the requirements of the placement, and therefore the course.

Sorry but that's not how teaching (or most workplaces!) work

Another valid point. There’s no other workplace or course where would this be acceptable in either!

Just because it’s a job working with (predominantly) women, it doesn’t mean that you can plead childcare problems and slope off early and the people you’re on placement with/working with should bend over backwards to accommodate you—just because they’re women too.

If you can’t do the placement then don’t apply and do another job instead.

And if not being there enough means not being able to make the progress necessary to pass, then that is a consequence of not being there enough.

I think the comparison given earlier of students missing lectures to go to their paid work, or 6th corners not being available for ctach up sessions when they have a study period,became they booked a driving lesson are similar examples. These students, the student teacher and real teachers cannot CHOOSE when to be at work and say other commitment prevent them being there - the job or course REQUIRES them to be there and they are failing to meet the requirement by not being there -expecting to pass or be paid, whilst failing to meet the requirements seems a ridiculous expectation. Most people are fully aware of expectations but students and workplaces should always spell these tho GS out for clarity.

And it's not as if teaching isn't populated by lots of people in similar situations. We've all had to organise our family life around our jobs to one degree or another.

Exactly. Managing family arrangements is difficult!t for everyone....but people find a way and these students and teachers need to do so too. The idea that their situations are somehow more special and warrant special treatment is just daft. Everyone has to make hard decisions about where to live, childcare etc.

And I'm getting increasingly annoyed with someone in my team at the moment who, when we have a deadline coming up (joint reports, for example), says things like, "well, I'm away this weekend/got the kids/volunteering at Brownies so can't really help. I can do an hour or two "for you" next week!"

Agree almost.
It always feels very much like when a 6th former has had their coursework deadline 6 months in advanve and then pleads 'poor me' and explains they can't possibly manage to hand in on time because they had work and then they were babysitting.

Give me a break. You've had months.

Same for ITT. People get told it is a full time course and yet there's always some who can't get their head around what full time means

OP-to return to you...what have you done about this situation?

I would be speaking to the link university tutor and explaining the situation to see what they say and what they recommends. I would do that tomorrow. There must be lectures that she has to attend-I can almost guarantee they are going on later than 3.30-is she making those?

I’ve just seen you have written

I'm going to speak to SLT tomorrow.They're quite fair.

What did they say?

A placement is not a job and it is very different from a job in terms of arranging childcare.
I think it's irrelevent to say she wouldn't cope with teaching if she can't can't cope with the placement, I'm not a teacher but I am studying for a medical based degree and have recently done a placement that's 90 minutes commute by car, if I had children (as one of the women with me does) I wouldnt be able to done the hours (8-5). If it was my regular job I wouldn't live 90 minutes from it if I had children and I would also get payed more to be able to arrange adequate childcare. The placement has been very very accommodating of the woman with childcare so it's bullshit to say its only in teaching you would be expected to work around it.
If it is your regular employment you would live closer, have regular income and be able to set up a long standing arrangement either wih childcare or grandparents or something but you can't always set this up for one placement like you can for a permanent job.
I think op ou need to talk wig her, if she needs the meeting time with you and there s no way you can do it during the school day would it be possible to arrive early/leave late one day a week? What about emails or Skype. Skype isn't taking anymore out of your day than a face to face meeting. I think you need to let the student know that she is likely to fail unless she has these meetings, you may have already done that but I think that's a conversation you need to have.

It was a long while ago now, but fairly sure I was doing 7.30am til 5.30/6pm on placement. Not dissimilar to my actual hours once qualified.

I left after DC2 because it literally is the most un-family friendly job in the world! Zero flexibility and once home, work would start again at 8pm until 11pm most nights.

I personally wouldn't have gone into teaching if I had have kids at the time because it is hard to sort childcare out for the hours needed and as a student you're obviously not getting paid.

Also a full time course is possible with children if you live 10 minutes away e.g. thats 8.30 to 5.30 which is normal hours but if your suddenly adding 90 minutes onto that commute that's not so possible and means you can't always manage the hours, but when applying for jobs you would be aware that you can't manage that 90 minute commute and so either wouldn't apply to those jobs or move.

Still needs to be factored in, dish, when you're making the decisions about whether a course is viable.

I did a course that required a placement. because after school only ran until 6pm and I didn't get near the school until 7pm so had to leave over an hour early so I could be on time to collect him as no one else could. One 4 week block of my placement took place during the school holidays where childcare was £30 per day and I couldn't afford it.

Term time, my son was in school from 8am - 6pm every single day and I didn't want that for him, I was always exhausted and so was he.

Im so glad I left. I think expectations are too high of students and that a lot of them are not in a financial position to pay for full time child care when they are not earning the wages to pay for it. I also think that degrees with placement are not suitable for people with children unless they have lots of family support or childcare readily available.