Student 'can only do' 8.30-3.30

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I'm fairly new to teaching so I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be responsible for failing someone.

It's just not enough time. I don't get the chance to talk to her properly.

She's okay. Not great- but if I actually had time to mentor her she might get better!

It's a full time course and childcare needs to be in place as it would with any other full time working commitment.
Agreed.
It is a full time course so people applying should have full time arrangements.
Schools can (and do!) accept emergencies and unforeseen circumstances but you wouldn't turn up on a medical school placement and inform your teaching hospital that you will be leaving at X time.
Just somehow being teaching it's all fine.

So what would be reasonable? 8 - 4, 8.30 - 4.30, 9 - 5 are options I could reasonably put forward.

I could push the 8am start back to anytime earlier. And similarly, a late finish to any late time. But I cannot start early and finish late on the same day.

Evenings like parents evening etc we could accommodate because there not not that frequent. DH could work from home.

If those options aren't realistic then I think the teaching profession is going to miss out on lots of potentially good staff.

Last year I had a poor trainee and they were a horrendous drain on the department.

In primary, there is no 'department'. The burden of a poor trainee falls on a single class teacher.....and on their class.

A PGCE student even at the end of their placement should only be teaching a max of 50% timetable.

What a load of rubbish!

I work with PGCE students regularly and would be shocked if they had to leave for child care at 3.30. How do they manage the uni weeks of the course?

Yes-exactly. Our uni days were 9-5.30, presumably she doesn’t just stand up and walk out at 3.30 on those days!

We had a PGCE student about 3 years ago who tried to pull a similar stunt. She didn’t pass the course.

Otherwise we get to a point where it's considered totally reasonable to expect a mentor to conduct work in their evenings but obviously totally unreasonable to expect a trainee on a professional programme to actually do reasonable hours for the job they are training for.

Again-very true.

Change, what would you do if you took a job in a different industry? Teaching ISN'T family friendly in term time, though it is great for much of holiday times (as although you do still have to work, the time is much more flexible).

9-5 obviously won't work, as you can't walk in as / after the children do (we start at 8.45, with playground duty starting at 8.30).

Of the other two, it will depend on your placement school and teacher. 8-4 would work better if you were with me, 8.30 - 4.30 might work better for a different class teacher / school. Remember to allow 1 evening a week when you will be expected to be in the normal times for lessons but stay on for staff meeting for c. 1 hour.

If those options aren't realistic then I think the teaching profession is going to miss out on lots of potentially good staff.

Those options really aren’t realistic. Did you speak to teachers during your work experience?

It's reasonable to expect trainee teachers can be around to complete their training job. Meetings are often for an hour after school so I would expect they were around for those.

As a mentor, I couldn't care less if a trainee prefers to be in early and leave early (as long as they are around for meetings). I couldn't care less if they get in later and leave later (as long as they make morning briefings and have time to set the room up). I couldn't care less how the trainees and the class teachers arrange to catch up (that's for them to sort).

I would care if staff were finding it awkward to meet with the trainee because the trainee is in school so few hours

If trainees seriously need telling they can't do 830-3, that the job is more than being in class and that school can't bend over backwards to facilitate their poor organsiation then maybe teaching isn't for them.

So what would be reasonable? 8 - 4, 8.30 - 4.30, 9 - 5 are options I could reasonably put forward.

I would say that 8-4.30 are my absolute core hours at school. I can just about get everything I need to sorted. If there is anything ‘else’ though-it will have an impact on those hours, eg if there’s a big assessment that needs extra marking , that will take extra time, data drops (once a half term) take time, meetings with parents, twilights, staff meetings-this is one night a week till 4.30, but obviously that then means no marking/tidying up/setting up for the next day has been done, so I can’t leave at 4.30 that day. If a display or moderation, or training has to done, that normal daily marking/prep still has to happen somewhere.

I tend to get in earlier though as I get more done then, so arrive at 7-7.30 and leave at 4.30-5. Others tend to prefer 8-6.

cantkeepawayforever
I can imagine.
In secondary it's a massive drain on me as a mentor because they have one of my classes and I've got to act as go between when a poor trainee is managing to cause issues for 6 members of staff.

In primary is the class teacher the mentor who does tje weekly reviews too?

When she is being PAID as a teacher she will likely be able to pay for child care.

But knowing you needed to sorting childcare so that you can be present for the entire course should have been a basic prerequisite before even signing up.

That should have been factored into deciding if it was possible for you to even do the course.

Well that's exactly it. In my last job I worked 7.30 to 4. Worked for me and my employer. Plus DH worked 10 - 6 or something like that. So bewteen us we covered dropping off and picking up from childcare.

If a regular late stay, say past 4.30 was needed then I'd need to start late because as a family we can't magic someone up to drop off at the child minder. She opens at 7.45. If a school placement is over an hour away then 8.45 is going to be the earliest I can get there on a late finishing day.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest those as options (start early, finish early/ start late, finish late). Eight hours a day in school seems plenty to me, with the rest of the work being done at home.

Although 9 - 3.30 is being cheeky unless there's a huge commute involved.

Also where are teachers finding childcare that starts at 6am and finishes at 7pm?

Someone asked if I'd spoken to teachers about the hours. Yes, I have. The school I did my pre-application experience in was family-friendly with no expectation of being in past 4.30.

Also where are teachers finding childcare that starts at 6am and finishes at 7pm?

I don’t do those hours, but on days I’m in early-DH sorts the kids before going to work so I can just leave. I then pick them up at 6 and he works late.

'I don't want to be responsible for failing someone'

If you're concerned that, as a result of not having enough time to reflect appropriately on her work, she is at risk of failing, you should definitely raise it with your superiors. You sound really nice and caring. If she fails, it surely won't be due to lack of support from you.

I think that people saying that the hours aren’t very family friendly, are quite right! Teaching isn’t a family friendly job during term time; I don’t think anyone has said it was since about 1975. I would hope people would have worked that out before applying though .

I’ll be honest, I just absolutely could not have done my PGCE with kids. There were some parents on the course, not sure how they managed but at least one of them dropped out before the end.

When on placement I was getting buses at 7am to travel an hour across the city, and then probably leaving at 4.30 ish most days to travel back. I think I was lucky that neither of my placement schools expected me to stay for meetings or parents evenings. I then spent a lot of time in the evenings working, and at weekends. The only times I left at 3.30 were during a v rubbish placement where the teacher wouldn’t let me do much teaching, therefore I didn’t have much work to do. And obvs that wasn’t good.

Then when I was an NQT I was in school 7.30-6 most days, plus working at home every evening and one day at the weekend.

I know people do train with children and obviously manage somehow but I couldn’t have.

I'm not a teacher or student but can this "one to one" not be done daily on Skype. Just a thought! Like I say not my thing.

If you are on a full time course, you need to be available for full time hours and also to recognise some flexibility is required.

So a student may need to be flexible to attend a parents evening to see how that works, or to go to an after school meeting, or to stay and see their mentor after school sometimes. All of these non-regulars should have notice given of them, but a student needs to have enough flexibility to fit them in. The exact specifics can be arranged for the individual but if someone is only in school for 6.5 hours, that will probably not be enough time to cover everything. This needs spelling out to people at the start of the course and each placement. Op, I think whoever is in charge of your centre should have made this clear at the start - now is a bit late as a pattern is established.

Students and teachers need to know that totally rigid hours within the school day won't always work and it will sometimes be necessary to at things either before or after school and it will be ten individuals responsibility to ensure they can, with enough notice given. Simply saying youcare not available ever, is not an option.

I'm not a teacher or student but can this "one to one" not be done daily on Skype.

So the class teacher has to stay late or give up part of their evening to do it while the student gets to go home?

Teacher training and teaching is not a 9-3.30 in school activity. Anyone doing it will need to factor in being there earlier and\or later some of the time. Teachers do not work totally separately but need time with other teachers and this cannot always happen within school hours and is part of the job.

If you cannot be there for the meetings required and times outside of school hours, you cannot do the job or course. It isn't acceptable to say 'I have to collect my kids' - it is up tonyou to arrange the childcare so you can do the work and be in school to meet with people you need to meet with. If the current childcare doesnt deliver what is needed, its the childcare that has to change, not the school - it is getting this round the wrong way that is creating the problem.

Why does the student need a 1-1 after every lesson? I understand maybe asking what went well or saying ooh so and so may need this tomorrow... but not every lesson.

When I was a student I only had feedback after an observation lesson, if I wanted advice it's my responsibility to go to the class teacher. The class teacher also didn't stay in the lessons for me, she left me with the TA. I found that a lot easier as it felt more like 'my classroom'.

Has this student said they aren't available to email? If they aren't on a 70/80% placement they will have time to plan and resource when they aren't teaching. It's advised you stay and observe some lessons with the class teacher but not all of them! Students need more time to prep because they are students! I'd suggest asking if one night a week they stay a little bit later to discuss any observation findings. After all they should only have 1 obvs a week unless there is cause for concern on their teaching practise.

Someone mentioned switching childcare. We actually only have the one provider in our village who picks up and drops off at the village school.

So that would involve switching schools for the DC. Anything else you'd like me to do?

The thing is though, you can only do a job which you have childcare to cover. If you haven't got the chi!scare, you cannot go to go to your employer and say 'sorry, I haven't got childcare so I will always have to miss that 4pm meeting' if that meeting is part of your job.

You could;

• look further and wider for childcare
• change your hours or go part time
• move house to where childcare is available
• move job

Yes none of these are easy and might not be things you want to do, but it isn't acceptable to expectancy employer to agree and pay you when you can't carry out a key part of your job on a regular basis. People the country over make arrangements so that they CAN be at work and their kids cared for -it is often difficult, expensive and involves big changes like moving house or job or whatever.....and people do it. You cannot expect to have a specified job and not to do it all.

Shortandsweet No one has suggested it's after every lesson. But the OP's student does appear to leave school every day at 3.30, meaning they can seldom, if ever, meet up properly.

with no expectation of being in past 4.30.

This is very different to not being in past 3:30.