Student 'can only do' 8.30-3.30

[SpringisSpringing]

I'm fairly new to teaching so I really don't know what to do. I don't want to be responsible for failing someone.

It's just not enough time. I don't get the chance to talk to her properly.

She's okay. Not great- but if I actually had time to mentor her she might get better!

Apologies, I was replying to the posters immediately above mine, who were wrangling over the fact that a student should be just FINE on 7 hours a day, because directed time is only 6.5 and so the job must be doable within it.....

Of course teaching isn't 9-5.30. Nor is medicine, or accountancy, or management in pretty much any sphere. The amount of directed time is irrelevant to the case of this student, as it is irrelevant to EVERY teacher I know in RL. Not because teachers are martyrs, but because in ANY profession, hours of work are nominal; they are not what anyone normally works..

The student is not putting in the hours necessary to do their work adequately, which at the moment includes time to meet with their mentor / class teacher and that is that.

As a teacher, I work slightly fewer hours than my DH, who is in a totally different profession.

I work slightly more, in term time, and less, out of term time, than i did in industrial management.

I work less than I did as an academic.

In all cases, I have never worked my 'contracted' hours, nor have any of my colleagues.

Teachers expect to work well in excess of 40 hours per week in return for 12 weeks plus of paid holiday.

LarryGrylls, We don't get 12 weeks plus of paid holiday. We get five, as many other professionals do. The remaining weeks are unpaid.

But why do we have to accept that all these hours of work in any profession are just what we have to accept?
How come German teachers for example don't do any displays or mark any exercise books or do constant intervention, yet students manage to do well?

But the student isn't just putting in 6 or 7 hours a day. They are likely working at home in the evening. Directed time is just the time you have to be in school.

We have the longest working hours in Europe. I now work 7 hours a day and it is much better. Its not a race to the bottom as they say.

Finland has one the best education outcomes in the world. No uniform, later school start, teachers are treated much better and are able to make professional decisions.

Tufted,

As a primary trainee, if the trainee is working at home BUT has not been able to meet with their class teacher |A ALL at the end of the day, then much of their work at home could be wasted.

Those daily 'How do you think it went? X lesson went well, need to look out for Y, try Z next time, remember your next objective from the standards is A' meetings are critical, especially early in a placement, for the student to make progress.

Dorothy,

Genuine question: if German primary teachers never mark their pupils' exercise books, how do they know how they are progressing?

Tests/assessments are marked but not books.

As a primary trainee, if the trainee is working at home BUT has not been able to meet with their class teacher |A ALL at the end of the day, then much of their work at home could be wasted
This ^^
If I think about the progress my trainee has made this term, the biggest jumps actually have emerged out of informal chats

e.g. end of the day as they're sorting out what they're taking 'Maisy, you know x... do you think Y would work better?' Or 'Maisy, have you got 5 mins? I've been wondering about ... why do we do x, y, z? Could a b c work. Brief chat.'
Or 'Trainee, just some informal feedback. I noticed x in your lesson. For tomorrow you might want to try...'

So primary pupils do regular tests and assessments in all subjects?

Hmm. Definitely swings and roundabouts.

Would I prefer that I marked a child's English book to find out about their daily work, or would I prefer to put that child through regular assessments so that I have something to mark so that I know hopw they are doing?

Certainly as a child and as a parent i wold have preferred daily work to be looked at, rather than having to create assessments because my daily work wasn't ever marked....

I had to do the same as a student, I was also a single parent and since I wasn't being paid for my placement I couldn't pay for any extra childcare.

But those chats should occur within directed hours. Neither the teacher nor mentor should be expected to be in school for those.

Sofa,

As has been commented previously, directed hours = 6.5 hours per day.

It is entirely possible that for 6.5 hours each day, one or other of the class teacher and the trainee will be working with children.
working with children.

Thus 'chats' have to come after child-facing hours.

So for example, if I had a student who did 8.30 am - 3.30 pm, I could meet them:

• For 20 minutes 1 lunchtime
• For the 30 minutes of PPA on one afternoon when i am not meeting with other colleagues

um... and that's it. The rest of the time, one or the other of us is with a class or child or group or club or setting up the next lesson.

No, the class teacher should be given time during the day by the school to have those chats. Because the class teacher can't be directed to stay after school either.

Tufted,

Who teaches the class???

there are 2 options for the adult in front of the class:

• class teacher
• Trainee

It is unheard of for another member of staff to be recruited [there aren't any spare] cover a class just so that a trainee and teacher can meet, in any primary i have ever been in.

Then its a fundamental problem with the system and you should not be shrugging and saying oh well its just the way it is.

Especially not for a daily informal 15 minute chat of the after-school 'I have an idea, do you think it will work?' type.

But those chats should occur within directed hours. Neither the teacher nor mentor should be expected to be in school for those.
Mentor meetings occur within the school day (but usually in PPA time so it's not like extra time is asisgned to staff).

Informal chats are part of learning and growing as a professional. You learn by talking to colleagues, by sharing resources, by getting involved in the team. (Even now as an experienced teacher, today I've picked up 3 lessons worth of revision from a colleague which I now don't have to plan. Quite good considering we were just chatting quickly before a meeting which a trainee leaving on the bell would miss because they don't do school after the bell)

I'm not advocating excessive hours and as a mentor I actively find ways to teach trainees how to maintain a balance. Funnily enough one of the easiest way to gain balance is to work with others, collaborate, informally share resources and planning, pick up tips from others etc. You don't get any of that if you decide 'i'm going on the bell'. So many learning opportunities are being wasted at the very point in their career when they should be looking to learn.

Sofa,

So in your view every primary which has a trainee should be organising a member of staff to cover a class for part of every day so the trainee and teacher can meet, so that both can leave the moment the children leave?

No school would ever take a trainee. Ever. The extra cost alone would put all schools off.

Informal chats are part of learning and growing as a professional. You learn by talking to colleagues, by sharing resources, by getting involved in the team.

Exactly.

Sounds like your school are not providing appropriate time for you to mentor her, the school have funding allocated for this. As others have said, weekly meetings should be within the school day. 8.30 to 3.30 is completely unfeasible to plan/resource/assess etc. though.

can't
We're getting into some weird twilight zone where suddenly it's unreasonable for staff to even be on site after the kids leave and expecting reasonably intelligent professionals to apply a spot of common sense on working hours is obviously the entire reason that there's a workload issue.

5 minute chats with trainees either end of the school days is what is ruining education in every way shape or form. Expecting trainees to actually not go on the bell is indoctrinating them into martyrdom

Reality - Staff can be on site either side of the bell and accept that's part of the job without working excessive hours. They can have a chat, share resources etc because that's part of being professional. Some of us even manage to not work at home after school (and still check our trainees are ok at the end of each day)!