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The royal family

Harry’s security case

1000 replies

smilesy · 28/02/2024 11:21

The judgment is in Harry loses High Court challenge over UK security protection www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68421992 See here

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goldierocks · 28/02/2024 16:24

The Judiciary website has the full documentation:

Judgment

Press summary

I'm currently unwell and have time on my hands, so read the full judgment. It's quite tough going in parts due to the number of redactions, but I still think it's worth reading.

It's clear (in his own words, paragraph 70) that Harry thought he should retain permanent full police protection due to his status at birth, not just because of the threat level.

Harry complains about being treated differently to [redacted] (I think this is likely to be a family member or members) and seeks numerous clarifications from RAVEC (paragraphs 179-180).

Personally, I think paragraph 192 seeks to clarify the differences between Harry and the people he has used for comparison. There is another brief mention of the comparators in paragraph 245: .....The fact that RAVEC does, on an exceptional basis, provide protective security to [redacted text] has been dealt with above....The fact that there is a different justification for a very small number of persons in respect of [redacted text] is nothing to the point.

Harry is considered an 'exceptional member' of the RAVEC cohort, i.e. those eligible to receive state funded protective security (paragraph 114).

Paragraph 240: Importantly, the decision of 28 February 2020 accepted that the claimant nevertheless occupied a particular and unusual position, such that it was appropriate to afford him protective security in certain circumstances, [redacted text]. This led to the “bespoke” arrangements, which I have described earlier and which, for the reasons I have given, are free from public law error.

Harry’s consistent argument is that these bespoke arrangements are not good enough.

Harry frequently asked for clarifications as to why (he perceived) his security arrangements to be different from [redacted]. Paragraph 118 makes it very clear that RAVEC gives careful consideration and covers a range of factors as part of the decision making process.

Harry complained of paparazzi intrusion during his journey to and from the Well Child event at Kew Gardens on 3rd July 2021. RAVEC were not informed of Harry’s visit until 11th June 2021, which was less than the 28-days' notice period that had previously been agreed (paragraphs 120-121).

Harry (via Schillings, his legal representatives) has complained the arrangements put in place by RAVEC for each of his visits to the UK since 2021 have been "inadequate, inappropriate and ineffective". The Government Legal Department replied and disagreed (paragraph 134).

There is some new information about the "near catastrophic" New York car chase on paragraph 135.

I thought the inclusion of paragraph 160 was quite telling.
With all of the above in mind, it is necessary to examine the evidence. Before doing so, however, I must first identify the correct approach........memory is fallible and is especially unreliable when someone comes to recalling past beliefs. This is because memories of past beliefs “are revised to make them more consistent with our present beliefs”. Furthermore, the process of civil litigation in itself subjects the memories of witnesses to powerful biases.

The judge concludes the defendants' witness statements and evidence are in alignment (example in paragraph 170). The judge clearly thinks the defendants have the correct knowledge and experience to perform their roles (paragraph 175).

I think paragraphs 186 and 187 are well worth a read.

Harry said in the Oprah interview "The biggest concern was that while we were in Canada, in someone else’s house, I then got told at short notice security was going to be removed."
Paragraph 216 adds some further info:
.....The paper provided by the Royal Household in January 2020 warned the claimant that he would likely need private security. At the meeting in mid-January 2020, the Cabinet Secretary explained to the claimant’s Private Secretary that the claimant should have no expectation of his existing security arrangements remaining the same. This was reiterated at the meeting of 27 January 2020......

Paragraphs 219-225 are interesting. Fiona Mcilwham was Harry & Meghan’s Private Secretary. She attended numerous meetings including representatives from the Royal Household and RAVEC. The evidence contains emails from her detailing the conversations had been relayed back to Harry. He claimed that he should have been independently and personally contacted by RAVEC. Harry says he did not fully brief Fiona so she was unable to make representations on his behalf. Paragraph 226 concludes that Fiona had a good grasp of her job and that Harry’s belief that additional steps should have been taken (to communicate with him independently of his Private Secretary) were "beside the point".

Harry’s 'offer to pay' for police protection is briefly covered in paragraph 243.

Harry argued the requirement for him to provide 28 days' notice of his intention to travel to the UK was irrational. The judge disagreed (paragraph 248). ....Given RAVEC’s expertise, the decision to require 28 days’ notice would need to be shown, by reference to evidence, to have been plucked out of the air or imposed for some extraneous reason, before this head of challenge could be made out. The claimant has pointed to nothing of the kind.

Personally, I can't work out what grounds Harry could use to appeal.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/AC2021LON002527-RDoS-v-SSHD-7-Dec-23-Redacted-Open-Approved-Judgment.pdf

Serenster · 28/02/2024 16:25

And from the Judgment we learn:

In the Sandringham agreement itself, the fact that the Royal Family could not themselves guarantee security was expressly called out:

Under the heading “on Security”, it was stated that given the claimant’s public profile, as a result of being born into the Royal Family, his military service, his wife’s own independent profile and the history of targeting of the Sussex family by right-wing extremists, the family would “continue to require effective security to protect them”. The Royal Family would support “the Sussexes in making the case for effective support from Her Majesty’s Government and Canadian and other host Governments, whilst noting that these are independent processes and decisions for those Governments”.

An email on 10 January 2020 states that the Royal Household was preparing advice for the Sussexes a range of issues, including security. Apparently the security advice was going to flag to them that the Government might not be prepared to pay for security in the long term under the new arrangements, “So the Household are alive to this possibility”.

Sir Mark Sedwill, the Cabinet Secretary [i.e. Government, not Palace] had told Meghan and Harry around 16 January that they should have no expectation that the present security arrangements in Great Britain would continue. RAVEC would wish to review what was appropriate. RAVEC would “not provision because they were celebrities and faced intrusive interest from the public or the press”. If they had concerns regarding the latter risks, they could look to private sector provision. Sir Mark noted he got immediate push back from the Sussexes on this.

And extraordinarily, Sir Mark Sedwill was told by RAVEC that “The Royal Household had also asked whether it was open to them to ask to pay for security delivered by the MPS but he had ruled this out. I agreed.”

(So QEII was willing to pay for the security, but was told this wasn’t possible. I note the Queen didn’t take this to the press or seek judicial review just so people would think she was a good guy here….)

Prince Harry then threw his weight around, looking for an individual he could “blame”: “[Prince Harry] asked who would be willing to put him and his family in a position of extreme vulnerability and risk …“ I would like that person’s name who is willing to take accountability for this choice please …”. 🙄

TheSnowyOwl · 28/02/2024 16:25

His legal team must be delighted that he is a client as, once again, it’s the lawyers that are winning!

CC49 · 28/02/2024 16:30

Reading between the lines, it sounds like Harry is more concerned with being secure from the press and paparazzi than from genuine security issues.

pilates · 28/02/2024 16:31

So do we know how much this case is costing the taxpayer and how much it is costing Harry? Or will this information not be made public?

TheSnowyOwl · 28/02/2024 16:34

Thanks @goldierocks and @Serenster for taking the time to break it down.

Turtlerussell · 28/02/2024 16:38

@goldierocks @Serenster

i salute you both!

wow! He really is quite something!!!!!

MsForgetful · 28/02/2024 16:44

(So QEII was willing to pay for the security, but was told this wasn’t possible. I note the Queen didn’t take this to the press or seek judicial review just so people would think she was a good guy here….)

Much has been made about Harry thinking the met police were 'for hire', especially on this board. But it seems the Queen herself thought this too.

Since you have both been through the judgment, do you have the parts relating to the New York car chase? Interesting that hasn't come up here, as this forum discussed it at the time at length, with much mocking and disbelief- and its used as another example of their 'lies' quite often on the board.

Abouttimeforanamechange · 28/02/2024 16:49

So do we know how much this case is costing the taxpayer and how much it is costing Harry?

It's not just the cost in ££££. A lot of people who undoubtedly have more important things to do, have had to waste their time preparing their responses and giving evidence on this nonsense.

Gatorpickle · 28/02/2024 16:53

Since you have both been through the judgment, do you have the parts relating to the New York car chase?

That was a farce.

IIRC, H & M drove around for hours because they didn't want the press to know where they were staying (with friends). They went to a police station, took a taxi and then returned to the police station. At no point were they ever in danger. (Unless it was from a taxi driver whose driving skills are on par with mine.)

MsForgetful · 28/02/2024 16:55

Gatorpickle · 28/02/2024 16:53

Since you have both been through the judgment, do you have the parts relating to the New York car chase?

That was a farce.

IIRC, H & M drove around for hours because they didn't want the press to know where they were staying (with friends). They went to a police station, took a taxi and then returned to the police station. At no point were they ever in danger. (Unless it was from a taxi driver whose driving skills are on par with mine.)

In a letter to the Metropolitan Police in London dated Dec. 6 2023, the NYPD’s Chief of Intelligence discussed “certain changes to the security posture that will be afforded to the Duke and Duchess of Sussex” following a “thorough review” of the incident.
The intelligence chief wrote: “We found the following: reckless disregard of vehicle and traffic laws and persistently dangerous and unacceptable behavior on the part of the paparazzi during the night in question.
“The individuals operated vehicles, scooters, and bicycles in a manner that forced the security team, which included an NYPD Lead Car, to take evasive actions on several occasions and a circuitous route to avoid being struck by pursuing vehicles or trapped on side blocks.
“Our conclusion, upon review with the Manhattan District Attorney’s office, is that we have sufficient evidence to arrest two individuals for reckless endangerment.”

Turtlerussell · 28/02/2024 16:55

If Harry and Meghan are so fearful of their lives then don’t pursue a celebrity lifestyle. Stay out of the limelight. Don’t attend envelope-opening type events. And maybe they should stop writing inflammatory comments about terrorist organisations in books and then complain it’s made them even more of a target.

IcedPurple · 28/02/2024 16:55

The judgement however shows this is Harry spinning the story yet again to present the Palace as the bad guys and himself as the victim. He and Meghan had it made perfectly clear to them in January 2020 by the Cabinet Secretary, not the Palace, not only that their security could be removed, it was highly likely it would be.

Thanks for sifting through all this so we don't have to!

I remember when they made their big announcement, there was lots of discussion in the press about what their security arrangements would be, because obviously they couldn't expect things to continue as before if they were living abroad as private citizens. So not only was it made clear to Harry himself that his security would be downgraded, it was generally assumed even by complete outsiders.

I also, and admitting I'm no expert at all, just can't see what grounds for appeal he could have. His 'case' just seems like a complete non starter.

Turtlerussell · 28/02/2024 16:56

Exactly he isn’t representing the crown or on royal duties why should we pay

MrsGusset · 28/02/2024 17:00

TheSnowyOwl · 28/02/2024 16:25

His legal team must be delighted that he is a client as, once again, it’s the lawyers that are winning!

Yes, indeed.

Maybe The Bar Council should consider presenting a “Living Legend of Litigation” award to Harry for his services to the legal profession.

Turtlerussell · 28/02/2024 17:02

‘Harry says he did not fully brief Fiona so she was unable to make representations on his behalf. ‘

🙈😂

They’re just on the take aren’t they, grifters indeed

Abouttimeforanamechange · 28/02/2024 17:03

memory is fallible

Recollections may vary, in fact.

I wonder if Oprah is now wishing she'd never touched these two. Hasn't almost everything they said in that interview now been shown to be, umm, shall we say open to interpretation?

Much has been made about Harry thinking the met police were 'for hire', especially on this board. But it seems the Queen herself thought this too.

She may not have thought so. She may have just asked the question in order to get a clear statement of the position in writing that could be used to shut Harry up referred to in discussions.

Gatorpickle · 28/02/2024 17:08

IcedPurple · 28/02/2024 16:55

The judgement however shows this is Harry spinning the story yet again to present the Palace as the bad guys and himself as the victim. He and Meghan had it made perfectly clear to them in January 2020 by the Cabinet Secretary, not the Palace, not only that their security could be removed, it was highly likely it would be.

Thanks for sifting through all this so we don't have to!

I remember when they made their big announcement, there was lots of discussion in the press about what their security arrangements would be, because obviously they couldn't expect things to continue as before if they were living abroad as private citizens. So not only was it made clear to Harry himself that his security would be downgraded, it was generally assumed even by complete outsiders.

I also, and admitting I'm no expert at all, just can't see what grounds for appeal he could have. His 'case' just seems like a complete non starter.

I also, and admitting I'm no expert at all, just can't see what grounds for appeal he could have. His 'case' just seems like a complete non starter.

I'm no expert either; my understanding is that an appeal has to be based either on new information that existed at that time but was not brought to bear and would have materially affected the case or that there was a reason that the judgement was unsound, for example a jury was not correctly instructed.

I'm pretty sure an appeal cannot be based on "we don't like the result and so want to play best out of three".

JSMill · 28/02/2024 17:10

Thank you @goldierocks and @Serenster for going through the judgement and explaining the key points. What infuriates me is that H was deceitful in the OW interview about how his security was taken away. It was designed to make the RF and the UK government look heartless and H and M as victims. What actually happened was people at the highest level of government were warning them that they would lose their security if they were no longer working royals. I imagine they thought if they just flounced off, the UK government would give in because they were so important. H is most definitely an entitled brat and it infuriates me that the home office has had to waste so much time and money on this.
I wonder whose name was repeatedly redacted??

Daisyislazy · 28/02/2024 17:12

Seems to be a fair decision

Serenster · 28/02/2024 17:15

Much has been made about Harry thinking the met police were 'for hire', especially on this board. But it seems the Queen herself thought this too.

Well, from what we see here, the question was asked and the answer given and accepted. Unlike her grandson she didn’t then sue them - twice - to try and get the outcome she wanted.

MsForgetful · 28/02/2024 17:20

Serenster · 28/02/2024 17:15

Much has been made about Harry thinking the met police were 'for hire', especially on this board. But it seems the Queen herself thought this too.

Well, from what we see here, the question was asked and the answer given and accepted. Unlike her grandson she didn’t then sue them - twice - to try and get the outcome she wanted.

Yup got that. I am making the point he was criticised for even offering to pay and thinking he could, and now we learn the Queen did too. Was she wrong to ask to pay, or just Harry?
.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/02/2024 17:24

The bit about the "car chase" is section 135, MsForgetful; I was going to C&P it but see you just did

Clearly it's appropriate for the NYPD to make whatever security arrangements they see fit, just as our own authorities do in the UK, but if they possess sufficient evidence to charge people it's difficult to see why this hasn't been done, especially if the incident was as "near catastrophic" as was made out

It also doesn't chime terribly well with their statement at the time "On Wednesday evening, May 16, the NYPD assisted the private security team protecting the Duke and Duchess of Sussex. There were numerous photographers that made their transport challenging. The Duke and Duchess of Sussex arrived at their destination and there were no reported collisions, summonses, injuries or arrests in regard"

Quite why this letter arrived at the exact time this latest judgement was being considered is something we'll probably never know, but anyway it's clearly made no difference to the decision so may well go down as just a footnote

MsForgetful · 28/02/2024 17:25

I think it's interesting that the part about the NY car chase, included in the judgement, is being ignored.

Is that because the claim at the time was mocked and ridiculed on this forum and now you don't want to accept that it in fact happened as they said? Fairs fair, if you are all happy to discuss and rejoice in him losing this case, you should be able to acknowledge if you were one of the people to say they lied about the car chase.

I also think it's fair he lost this claim, based on what little I have read. He should receive security because he was born into this threat, but only when necessary and that should be on a case by case as he isn't in the UK often.

IcedPurple · 28/02/2024 17:28

I think it's interesting that the part about the NY car chase, included in the judgement, is being ignored.

Perhaps because it's entirely irrelevant to the case under discussion? As the judge seemed to agree. What may or may not have happened in NY has no bearing on Harry's security arrangement in Britain.

Isn't there another thread on the 'car chase'? Wouldn't that be where you'd expect to see it being discussed?

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