Harry’s security case

[smilesy]

The judgment is in Harry loses High Court challenge over UK security protection www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68421992 See here

Harry would never have made it through Captain to Major. They (family and senior officers) all knew that which is why he didn’t stay in the army. Would have been embarrassing.

and while the theory of skills in officers of leadership etc is a good one, I’ve met some unbelievably stupid former army officers. Really jaw dropping Tim-Nice-But-Dim types. And they didn’t make it to Major either.

(Firstly disclosure : ex-mil, ex-officer, ex-flying instructor)

I agree with your first and last sentence, the problem I have though here is defining “bright”.

Certainly there’s much more needed to fly and operate at any reasonably advanced level any aircraft than some sort of innate or learned skills that you simply replicate when needed. At least bit of brain power is needed, especially when it comes to applied flying and even more so if you move into a supervisory or command role (which he did). We’re not talking Nobel prize level of intellect (thankfully) but you won’t get away with being the bluntest knife in the cutlery draw.

I think H’s problem is much more down to entitlement and maybe laziness - perhaps he hasn’t got anybody to delegate to anymore……..

Totally agree with this. Harry was used to having whatever he wanted when he wanted. He just couldn’t foresee being inconvenienced in any way , especially by Granny who he seemed to assume was a soft touch.
Meghan just thought the RF would do Harry’s bidding and had unlimited resources to offer whatever they wished. What a pair of fools.

Why did he have to make it to Major though? Lots of soldiers are happy in lesser ranks. He left because he became a liability security wise. No other reason.

Also, the military is quite a sheltered world in its own way.

You are given somewhere to live, even if it's hardly Kensington Palace. You are told what to wear, what to do, when to get up and are functioning within a closed circle of people, all living in the same circumstances. It's not the 'real world' with bills to pay and choices to be made. Harry also had a very structured life as a royal, and I think he needs that. He isn't really able to function independently, even if he thinks he is.

@EchoChamber
"I thought Harry was always flying with a more senior person present though? I may be wrong."
I understood he did not get into Sandhurst on his own merit, but because of who he is. I also understood that he did not pass the pilot exams, and was actually a gunner, flying with someone else. I presume he learned to fly, and could possibly take over if the real pilot was incapacitated in some way?
Thats is why a lot of his former army coleagues are furious about his flying legend award, etc
Obviously, I have no evidence of this, but we certainly know William was/is a qualified helicopter pilot as he flew for the air ambulance service, etc
My impression is that Harry seems to think he deserves more security than anyone else in the RF.
I find it sad, as he could have 'stepped back' from the RF and forged a new life for himself. I can understand someone not wanting all the public scrutiny that comes with being part of the RF. However, he (and Meghan) now seem to want to have a similar life style, but away from the RF.

I don't know about "involved with", but didn't Harry once do a photo op walking through land mines a la Diana, which may well have been set up with HALO? I'll try to find it ...

As for what kind of a pilot he qualified as, the closest I've ever been able to find is that he "successfully completed the course", which isn't quite the same as saying he passed it
Maybe someone else knows better though?

Edited to add link I just found: https://www.halotrust.org/latest/halo-updates/news/prince-harry-in-angola-with-halo/

@milveycrohn

I also understood that he did not pass the pilot exams, and was actually a gunner, flying with someone else.

This is a rumour that simply won’t die and keeps being regurgitated on forums such as this but it’s not the full story.

According to sources who were at RAF Shawbury (military helicopter training school) as instructors and elsewhere when H was around:

Harry passed the basic helicopter course at Shawbury (which certainly involved passing exams and flying solo) on his own merits.

He moved on to the Apache attack helicopter which AFAIK has flying controls in both cockpits.

His first stint on the Apache was definitely as a pilot/gunner (so qualified pilot and qualified gunner ).

After that he then did a course to upgrade to pilot/Commander, qualified pilot and also qualified to coordinate the flight.

I’d agree there’s plenty to criticise Harry about but his military flying bio is legitimate.

Story I’ve heard was it was a case of him being told he needed to either go “up” or get out.

Some (one?) VVVSO was not happy with the idea of Harry being a playboy Captain or Major, based in London, doing a bit of soldiering in the AM and then off to the palace/polo in the PM.

He either needed to move up and put time in as a Major in a substantive full time role or quit…

As I said, that’s just a rumour/story, may be something in it, maybe not.

Because they operate what is called “Manning Control” in the Army, which is essentially a policy of “Up or Out”. The idea is that people can’t just stay at the same rank for years as if they are able, they would be promoted, and if they are not being promoted, they are taking up a spot in ranks which should be open to a more able person on a promotion track.

So Harry couldn’t just stay at his existing rank for several years and not progress. I he wasn’t suitable for promotion, he had to leave.

His first stint on the Apache was definitely as a pilot/gunner (so qualified pilot and qualified gunner)

After that he then did a course to upgrade to pilot/Commander, qualified pilot and also qualified to coordinate the flight

It's that second bit where I was trying to find something definitive though, rather than just "sources"
I'm quite prepared to belive Harry did pass the course rather than the more woolly "successfully completed it", but does anyone actually know?

I’m still puzzled about why people are puzzled about this whole aspect of his life…short of seeing his logbooks people are simply going to have to trust in what’s already in the public domain.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23200552

Very many thanks, notimagain; that's good to know, especially as they're actually quoting the MoD

Because they operate what is called “Manning Control” in the Army, which is essentially a policy of “Up or Out”.

Something similar happened to a friend of mine who was in the Navy. I didn't hear the full story, but I know she was told she was unlikely to progress beyond the rank she held, Lieutenant Commander, and so she had little option but to leave (and has found a new career for herself and is very happy in her present job).

Personally, I think ALL the children within the royal family should be brought up to have the necessary skills to find employment outside of the RF circle.

A lot of it is down to aptitude and personality, isn't it. Princess Anne had a successful equestrian career and has run Gatcombe for many years, and still carries on her work with Save the Children. And Harry did have employment, in the Army. The problem seems to be that he never thought beyond that. He must have seen other officers having to leave because they couldn't progress any further. Perhaps he just thought it wouldn't apply to him.

Didn't Harry say at the time of leaving the Army that he did so because he didn't want a desk based role which is what he would have had had he stayed?

Yes. Harry was last involved directly before the pandemic.

It's a charity very much associated with Diana, Princess of Wales, but I don't think it has a royal patron at the moment. I know a couple of people associated with it, but don't know the detailed ins and outs, including whether they even want high-profile patrons/ambassadors or if they have a different model

Not making it to major isn't a formal "up or out" weeding point, but in practice it functions as such.

To be substantively promoted, you have to pass exams/assessments, and much of that it done as a group (so your performance is known to your peers) and the results are published internally, so everyone would know how he had done.

AFAIK, he wasn't a security liability to the extent that any extra needs could not be accommodated

And what he thought about the sorts of jobs he would have had in the next few years (which would have involved desk jobs) can only be speculation.

Remember that expected career paths for Sandhurst commissioned officers is not the same as for those who joined as soldiers and worked their way up (ka late entry officers, and its not uncommon for those to progress no further than captain)

I’m not sure that would be because of a promotion per se, more because he was outed by the Australian press as being in the field, so his security was (genuinely for once 😆) compromised

He went back to Afghanistan after that, though, didn't he. I suppose everyone has to take their turn at a desk job, to allow other people to have time in the field.

My Naval officer friend, mentioned above, spent some time at sea and some time behind a desk over the course of her career.

A major is in charge of a sub unit of soldiers and is responsible for their training, welfare, equipment etc including in the field. So more man management than just a desk job

Yes, if they have secured an operational post.

But when they are appointed to a staff job, they will be at a desk. Those with no staff experience will not be suitable to promote, and will therefore be required to leave at the next manning control point. Yes, loads of people want the operational roles (it's what people join for) but staff roles are necessary, both organisationally and for building the experience that equips the officer for further promotion.

Thanks for that @mpsw. Clearly Harry felt that learning was not for him for whatever reason. It’s a bit like how he now seems to just get the glamorous roles without any hard work. Or to just have the glamorous roles for him and how wife in the Royal family 🤷‍♀️

I don’t think he did though. He was permanently pulled once his location was exposed by the Australian Press.

He’s taking orders from his wife instead. She literally steers him around.

It's not the 'real world' with bills to pay and choices to be made

Unless living in the mess (when there is only the one bill to cover) then yes, there are the normal range of rent, utility bills, council tax etc. Plus the delights of dealing with DIO (in effect the landlord) who have sometimes provided a very poor service indeed. And them the logistics of moving every few years, and changing suppliers, updating everything to new details, finding new school etc is no small task either.

Now I agree Harry didn't face that - he was a single officer and would normally have been living in a mess. I don't know where he chose to live; but he, like any other officer of independent means, could apply to live out (at their own expense and making their own arrangements). And if he did that, it would surely have been palace staff, not him, who made the arrangements