Endgame Part 6

[Mymilkshakebringsallthepapstomycar]

A turkey, absolute balls of stuffing or a right Christmas cracker? We'll let you decide. Please keep the discussion interesting, civilised and relevant - the Holiday Armadillo is lurking!

Previous thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4960903-omid-scobie-endgame-part-5?page=1

In Spare, Harry (reportedly - I haven't read it) describes how on the day the Queen died, everyone else went off to Birkhall for a family dinner, and left him behind. I don't blame them. On the day your mother has died, you don't want to sit down to dinner with someone who is going to spill your intensely personal conversation everywhere, with added twists of 'their truth'.

he seems to feel he is entitled to be part of whatever, irrelevant of how he’s treated them.

the way he’s now clinging to his title is very sad indeed. It’s all he has. He went from call me harry swiftly back to call me prince Harry,

Morning all. Checking in. Seasons Greetings to you all.

I was quite moved by Charles’ Christmas message. I think he will be a great King (much as Edward VII was after being overshadowed by Victoria for so long. He was known as the Uncle of Europe and I read somewhere that if he had lived longer then there would have been no WWI as he would have diplomatically de-escalated the tensions with the Kaiser during the build up to 1914). I also speculate and conjecture that this will be a drama-free rein. Harry will try to besmirch it all with scandalous tell-alls but the public appetite for such nonsense will fade into derision and disbelief. The RF are experts at greyrocking.

Spare 458: “I asked WillyWontHe what he was doing for the day and how he was going to include me and the bastard slimy thing told me to get the umbrellas as it looks like rain. Straight out of Winnie the Pooh well Willy is a poo and he smells.”

I think not using Royal titles, his own and his childrens', probably sounded like a great idea when they believed they were more important and influential than their Royal Family connection. Ultimately, I do think that was a step too far for Harry, and he soon backtracked.

Unfortunately, as a result, in their case, using Prince and Princess titles doesn't appear to hold the same prestige that it would have had if they had never made all the fuss about the titles in the first place, nor all the criticism about the RF. It seems as shallow as those who buy Lord and Lady titles, barely worth the paper it's written on.

I think that's a good point, @pinkmont and I remember Omid Scobie announcing that Archie would have no title on SM just after the birth. Turns out they need the titles, and the connections. Whoda thunk?

I agree, it already seems the titles are meaningless as it is clear they are not a part of the royal family any more, simply a birth link, and they are not working royals either, plus they live on a different continent.

it just seems a little embarrassing for them now to use them so much. But I think it’s what defines Harry in his mind, it’s who he is, and it’s all he has. Which is deeply sad when you think of his interviews, his book, and collaborating with Scobie on a book about the ending of the royal family. Some of the terrible things he said on the publicity tour for his book before launch. But yet has doubled down on his titles.

even in a recent court appearance when asked he said he wanted to be called prince Harry by the barrister.

I remember Omid Scobie announcing that Archie would have no title on SM just after the birth.

Archie was always Earl of Dumbarton. They just chose not to use it.

Calling their children Prince and Princess is pointless and ridiculous if they're going to grow up in the US, imo, and is more likely to be an embarrassment than a benefit to them as they grow up. Archie and Lili won't have any real understanding of the significance and meaning of the titles.

I think Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet will benefit. I suspect that the cachet will help, and it will open doors.

Aye Maireas

A connection to the RF will open doors and I suppose nothing will scream that more than a pretty title.

I do think that if Pa (and maybe Ma) carry on in the same vein, the titles will stand for nowt. It seems unfair but it is a possibility.

No child should be held accountable for the actions of their parents when they were barely out of (or into) hippens.

I would hope that the press and their world will give them a chance. I fear though that the first time they kick off, or act in some way unbecoming, they will be probably be clarted with the deeds of their folks. Hugely unfair.

A title will likely open doors.

The association may keep them shut.

It does look rather silly to insist on titles when they have moved to a country which doesn't have titles. Just why. It makes them look ridiculous. IMHO. I suppose there must be other folk with titles who are resident in America.

You're right, arcane - for people who want privacy it's very strange to have your children so styled. So distinctive, so obvious. Princess Lilibet Diana will certainly stand out at school.
Maybe they're thinking that it will future proof them - that the children will be guaranteed status and privilege and wealth.

But by the time their children are grown up Princess Diana will be a bit of a fading memory for most, and nobody much at all to their peers.

A connection to the RF will open doors and I suppose nothing will scream that more than a pretty title.

Thing is, the kids might be royal by birth, but they won’t have a connection at this rate.

As it is, they will have no shared memories with other members of the RF, won’t have spent time together, Christmases, birthdays, special occasions, formal events, they won’t know each other at all. At growing up in a country and culture that has no royal family and where the british royal family has no status, or influence, it will all seem very odd and quaint and weird from where they are living in the US. It won’t be real to them.

So they may be biologically connected, but they will have no actual meaningful connection or relationship with any of the British royal family. And everyone will know that, so any attempt to use it to their advantage will be seen as grubby and exploitative.

I cant see it being of any benefit to them at all, only difficulty and continued pain.

I agree with that.

Unless things change dramatically, those kids will grow up as rich California kids, with little meaningful contact with their British family. Without that contact, the 'titles' are empty, and more of a burden than a benefit. The Tindall and Philips children seem more 'royal' than them even though they have no titles at all. Even Bea's stepson Wolfie is seen at royal events. But not the Prince and Princess of Montecito, despite being grandchildren of the King himself.

Unless things change dramatically, those kids will grow up as rich California kids, with little meaningful contact with their British family.... Even Bea's stepson Wolfie is seen at royal events. But not the Prince and Princess of Montecito, despite being grandchildren of the King himself.

One day, H&M will have to explain the reasons for that to their children.

There are quite a lot of socialite-royals swanning about the world e.g. the Bourbon Two Sicilies lot. I imagine the Prince & Princess titles would provide a little extra cachet for that lifestyle.

I agree, @HeddaGarbled . They'd be invited to all manner of parties and events, and get good job offers.

This discussion is making me think of the Oxenberg sisters - Catherine famous for her part in Dynasty in the 1980s, and Christina, a writer and fashion designer. They grew up in a transatlantic mixture of European aristocracy, English schooling, New York new money aristocracy, and later, Hollywood. I think they are second cousins to Charles. Being able to move seamlessly between those different worlds like the Oxenbergs do would be the best solution for Lily and Archie, if their parents can facilitate this. I fear if they persist down the path they are going, the kids will feel like they don’t belong anywhere, which would be really sad.

I’m on the pivot for a minute.

I’ve just managed to watch the programme about the Coronation Year. I loved it. I worked the day of the Coronation and had to watch it long after the event. (Although I was able to catch a keek at the moment of crowning)

The diamond. The embroidery. The Choir. The wonder of it all. The beauty. The pomp and circumstance. The cheers from the soldiers ‘out the backie’.

The little ‘wheee’ as the butterfly was released into the sunshine. 😍

But the people. The actual people. The family.

I loved that her sister said, ‘he brings to her, everything’ and ‘that she is his rock’.

The King. The Queen. The love and affection between William and his dad. And can I just also mention the Princess Royal. She is also properly marvellous. And the quiet, beautiful way she spoke of the late Queen and our new Queen. So warm. I’m so glad that serendipity made itself available so she could be with her mam at the end.

I saw a genuine love in that family. A genuine humour. A genuine warmth. A genuine care. And a genuine sense of duty.

They all seemed to be blessed with a twinkle.

What a shame that two will not grow in the shine of those twinkles.

And pivot.

So true, @ArcaneWireless . So very true.

The kids will benefit simply as they are harry and Megan’s kids, famous parents, which will make them curiosities. Nepotism may still loom large in a couple of decades. Kids of famous folks, even the infamous like Harry and Megan have a curiousity factor, doors opened due to it. I think it’s less to do with the titles and more the fact that the titles will identify who they are immediately.

however it’s a long time till they are grown up, and a lot can happen between now and then. At the moment it looks impossible for the Sussex;s to make their way back, but if Harry is single, I’d bet good money he will come back with his tail between his legs, and that would mean the kids have some insight into the royals during any visits to the uk.

it’s also feasible if harry and Megan spend the next 5 years or however long, behaving themselves, doing charity work, even publicly reaching out to the royal family and saying some truths that are positive. Time is a great healer. Right now it’s too raw, too current. Too continuous.

the thing is it will need to happen in Charles’s life time.i think William will give him a roof over his head, an allowance, but no more. The children though make it more complex. But I don’t think there is a way back for Harry to William, and he will be king, likely by the time the kids are adults.

Well, yes, @HonoriaLucastaDelagardie , and we can probably see how that "explanation" would go. They were all meanies and forced us to leave. Honest to goodness, we came here for your own good.

I don't think either Harry or Meghan actually want to come back to the UK or the working side of the BRF. But if they do want to, or they want some kind of repaired relationship but for everyone to save face at the same time, then the kids' educational future is the key.

Archie will be five next year and elementary education in the US isn't that different to primary in the UK - it starts to diverge from about 10/11 onwards. So in about four years they mention wanting to have Archie and Lilly complete their secondary education in the UK - to learn about that side of their culture etc etc.

They come back and get Archie and then Lilly into a good boarding school - that gives them both a reason to be in the UK throughout the year, but also plenty of freedom to be able to travel back to the US during term time. The kids can spend the occasional weekends with Grandpa building that relationship without it being all drama around their parents bringing them.

UK laws will protect the kids from press intrusion - they'd be able to quietly get to know that side of the family. Then they'd have the perfect springboard to either stay in the UK for university or go back to the US for university years.

I'm sure Charles would pay for an English education for his grandchildren - and probably be happy to let Harry for the children's sake have one of his properties for a main base. Harry with/without Meghan would have plenty of reasons to be in the UK without it being a big drama. And then eventually a gentle truce for the sake of the children would be floated. Everyone saves face, no one has to moan about not getting apologies from the past.

Requires no big bombshell incidents over the next four years though.

There is no way on this earth that Meghan would send her kids to boarding school.
That typifies everything I suspect she loathed about the UK.

I can’t see why the children would be particularly bothered about stuffy, rainy Britain when they can be international socialite-royals, jetting between New York and Monaco, doing a bit of philanthropy-lite in between the parties.

Depends what sorts of things they get into when they are older - if they turn out to be history buffs or love art history, or are interested in horse racing, or international politics, then their grandfather has some of the best connections and collections in the world.

The chance to see behind the scenes in Buckingham Palace or be able to explore the hidden parts of Windor Castle.

You are assuming that they will grow up to be vacuous celebrity kids - they might want to explore their British roots.

I have a half American, half British child and they love both parts of their heritage and can't wait to spend some serious time in the UK once they are older and out of school. We've ended up in the US school system and it's too late to change now. But I'm hoping for at least a year abroad for university.