Page 38 | Omid Scobie Endgame PART 5

Mymilkshakebringsallthepapstomycar · 2023-12-11T10:56:02+00:00

A continuing civilised and enjoyable discussion of all things relating to Endgame. Please keep posts on topic - I do not want to have to invoke Ross Gellar again! Previous thread: [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4957618-omid-scobie-endgame-part-4?page=1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4957618-omid-scobie-endgame-part-4?page=1]]

Mylovelygreendress · 22/12/2023 14:19

lepapillon · 22/12/2023 10:26

I just watched a bit of this video, which appeared on YouTube next to the body language one. It's quite interesting to see an overview of the early part of their relationship and how things went wrong with the media, the public, and the other royals.

It mentions some of the text message exchanges and conversations between H&M and W&K which were reported in Spare (I haven't read it). Reading these, it's little wonder they fell out.

Kate sent a text to Meghan about the issue with Charlotte's dress and in response, Meghan imperiously tells Kate to take Charlotte to KP to have the dress adjusted "just like the other mothers."

She seems determined to put Kate and William in their place (she later tells William to "take his finger out of her face" when he points at her).

This is a recurrent motif. Either you believe in the hierarchy, in which case you behave respectfully to those who are above you in it - or you don't believe in it, in which case you don't present yourself using a title and you don't choose titles for your children.

It seems they want everyone to treat them as 'better' while treating their own 'betters' with contempt.

Edited

The exchange of text messages about Charlotte’s dress do not show Meghan in a good light . Catherine had given birth to Louis a couple of weeks beforehand and was probably exhausted.
On MN anyone who ordered the mother of a 2 week old baby to do something would be pounced on yet so many people made excuses for Meghan .

jeffgoldblum · 22/12/2023 14:44

Why does Harry's eyes look so terrifying in that picture?
Photoshop?
😱

FinallyFinalGirl · 22/12/2023 14:46

I felt a tinge of admiration for Meghan when I read she had told William to take his finger out of her face.

Cosywintertime · 22/12/2023 14:59

IcedPurple · 22/12/2023 13:10

I don't see why 'they' wouldn't have wanted him to continue in the army. It's the tradition for the 'spare' to do just that, as Andrew and others have done. What reason would 'they' have for 'pulling' him from what, had he passed the exams, would likely have been a desk job? Don't you think that had he indeed been 'pulled' against his will, he'd have made a big thing of it in 'Spare'? He never misses an opportunity to tell the world how hard done by he is by 'them'.

Show quote history

Exactly, I can’t see he came out voluntarily, he obvs wasn’t happy , and he’s not said, which indicates it’s something he did. Drink. Drugs, dangerous performance, something he’s done, that’s made them pull him, hence why he’s not talking about it.

Raincloudsonasunnyday · 22/12/2023 15:08

FinallyFinalGirl · 22/12/2023 14:46

I felt a tinge of admiration for Meghan when I read she had told William to take his finger out of her face.

Me too. I can imagine him being quite loud, and quite emotional if angry, and I can well imagine him jabbing a finger. Anyone doing that to me would be told in no uncertain terms to get their finger out of my face! I didn’t read Spare, so don’t know what the context was. I might jab a finger in a nasty man’s face if he were throwing insults at or trying to bully me or my children (or anyone, in fact. Writing this, I’m remembering that I have indeed done this, at a pay point in a multi-storey car park 😳 Could have gone very wrong, with hindsight…).

I have never bought the bullying allegations against Meghan. I think there’s a difference between being a difficult/ demanding boss, and being a bully. Bullying implies getting personal with someone, and I just can’t see that anyone would ever bother getting personal with a RF member of staff. What could be that big a deal, and how big an impact could one member of staff have on your life 🤷‍♀️

ArcaneWireless · 22/12/2023 15:12

That sounds plausible
@MrsFinkelstein

IcedPurple · 22/12/2023 15:19

I have never bought the bullying allegations against Meghan. I think there’s a difference between being a difficult/ demanding boss, and being a bully. Bullying implies getting personal with someone, and I just can’t see that anyone would ever bother getting personal with a RF member of staff. What could be that big a deal, and how big an impact could one member of staff have on your life 🤷‍♀️

So the well sourced accounts in Valentine Low's book and Harry's own description of staff bent over their desks in tears don't count as 'bullying' in your eyes?

And I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Bullying implies getting personal with someone"? Could you elaborate?

FinallyFinalGirl · 22/12/2023 15:20

@Raincloudsonasunnyday I'm not sure what the context was as I just read it about in the paper rather than Spare but any rude man pointing a finger in my face would have got the same treatment that Meghan dished out to him. Good for her, I say!

There is a lot about Meghan I admire and find some of the accusations made against her and the insults she is pounded with just obscene at times. There are actually people out there who believe she has no children. It's crazy stuff. They're mad....absolutely mad.

Raincloudsonasunnyday · 22/12/2023 15:39

IcedPurple · 22/12/2023 15:19

I have never bought the bullying allegations against Meghan. I think there’s a difference between being a difficult/ demanding boss, and being a bully. Bullying implies getting personal with someone, and I just can’t see that anyone would ever bother getting personal with a RF member of staff. What could be that big a deal, and how big an impact could one member of staff have on your life 🤷‍♀️

So the well sourced accounts in Valentine Low's book and Harry's own description of staff bent over their desks in tears don't count as 'bullying' in your eyes?

And I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Bullying implies getting personal with someone"? Could you elaborate?

I don’t know the ins and outs of it, just what I’ve read in the various news outlets about it. I’ve never read a book about any member of the RF in my life, I don’t care enough!

By getting personal, re the bullying allegations: bullying suggests targeting someone, going after someone, intending to cause them harm. Those are very serious allegations, serious things to do. In the early days of my working life I used to have a “slave-driver” kind of principal, someone who expected us all (male and female, whatever our roles) to work the same long hours for the same top goals as he did. He was top of his field, and had no life outside of his work. Two of my fellow graduate recruits found him to be bullying, when he’d say something like “leaving so early?” at 7pm. I didn’t think he was bullying; I thought he was demanding. It wasn’t personal to those two colleagues, in my eyes - he would have said the same to anyone doing those jobs, leaving at 7pm. But to those two people, it was personal because it was said to them and they were persons. I can see both sides, and from what I read in the press at the time, I think this is probably the sort of situation that arose with Meghan. Different expectations, different understandings, different cultures. But like I say, I’ve never read the books that have investigated these claims. Does Valentine Low say differently?

IcedPurple · 22/12/2023 15:45

Raincloudsonasunnyday · 22/12/2023 15:39

I don’t know the ins and outs of it, just what I’ve read in the various news outlets about it. I’ve never read a book about any member of the RF in my life, I don’t care enough!

By getting personal, re the bullying allegations: bullying suggests targeting someone, going after someone, intending to cause them harm. Those are very serious allegations, serious things to do. In the early days of my working life I used to have a “slave-driver” kind of principal, someone who expected us all (male and female, whatever our roles) to work the same long hours for the same top goals as he did. He was top of his field, and had no life outside of his work. Two of my fellow graduate recruits found him to be bullying, when he’d say something like “leaving so early?” at 7pm. I didn’t think he was bullying; I thought he was demanding. It wasn’t personal to those two colleagues, in my eyes - he would have said the same to anyone doing those jobs, leaving at 7pm. But to those two people, it was personal because it was said to them and they were persons. I can see both sides, and from what I read in the press at the time, I think this is probably the sort of situation that arose with Meghan. Different expectations, different understandings, different cultures. But like I say, I’ve never read the books that have investigated these claims. Does Valentine Low say differently?

Show quote history

If you've never read much about the bullying claims, how can you be so sure that they are false?

Valentine Low has a lot of well sourced and very specific accounts in his book, which certainly can't be brushed away with 'different cultures'. Several of the people he cites are easily identifiable, and none have come out to say they were misquoted. Harry himself talked about staff 'bent over their desks crying' in 'Spare'. That doesn't sound like a pleasant work environment to me.

It may also be worth adding that Meghan has never specifically denied the allegations.

Raincloudsonasunnyday · 22/12/2023 16:00

I’m not so sure, @IcedPurple ! I have never given it enough brain space to want to be sure. Happy for you to set me straight.

The RF shenanigans are just tittle tattle to me, I don’t take any of it seriously (I’m an anti-monarchist, the very idea of them is preposterous to me). Meghan Markle’s tenure is interesting to me because I am British and have to deal with her type (California BS, self-righteous, venal in the extreme - imo) regularly in my real life. I’ve learned stuff about Harry along the way!

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 22/12/2023 16:01

Exactly, I can’t see he came out voluntarily, he obvs wasn’t happy , and he’s not said, which indicates it’s something he did.

Not necessarily. He might just have been told he wasn't up for promotion, either because as pp said he hadn't passed the exams, or for some other reason. That happens to many officers, not just Harry, and there's not much choice but to leave. Happened to someone I know in a different branch of the Services. It's not like civilian jobs, where if you're not promoted in one workplace, you can look for another job with a different employer.

Maireas · 22/12/2023 16:04

It's very interesting that Tom Bower has gone on record as saying that the Sussexes should sue, if they find untruths in his book. They haven't sued.

lepapillon · 22/12/2023 16:05

I can easily imagine Meghan bullying staff, for the same reason she stood up to William, She seems to think very highly of herself and to look down on others.

Cosywintertime · 22/12/2023 16:15

lepapillon · 22/12/2023 16:05

I can easily imagine Meghan bullying staff, for the same reason she stood up to William, She seems to think very highly of herself and to look down on others.

I do wonder if she was like that before. I suspect not. She would never have had staff.

which makes me think she simply thought her title, her position, gave her the ability to treat people she deemed as below her in a bullying manner.

some of the accounts of the way she spoke to them , the things she said, the demands she made, the fear people had, the humiliation she doled out, are really harrowing, and it’s interesting that such a litigious couple, fighting for anything slightly misleading against them, have issued no outright denial nor taken any legal action

Raincloudsonasunnyday · 22/12/2023 16:30

some of the accounts of the way she spoke to them , the things she said, the demands she made, the fear people had, the humiliation she doled out, are really harrowing

Are you able to elaborate on this, please? My interest is now piqued! Harrowing sounds like terrorisation!

cauliflowerwaterfall · 22/12/2023 17:18

There’s a difference between a demanding boss & a bully, and the former staff members made it clear they felt the behaviour was bullying. Other senior members of staff also thought it was bullying. Staff members were moved around households and some were effectively constructively dismissed. I think it’s really unfair to dismiss their complaints purely on the basis of the melodrama that surrounds the Sussexes. Even if M didn’t realise how her behaviour could be construed, she clearly is still not taking it seriously.

Notreallybarbie1 · 22/12/2023 17:30

A friend of a friend worked at BP. Years ago (before any whispers that all in the garden wasn’t rosy with Meghan) I asked her what it was like to work there. She said she liked it, the family were kind and polite and she was always amazed that the Queen took a real interest in her family. Then she said that she wasn’t sure about Meghan (who had only been around about a year) as she treated them very much like they were servants rather than staff. At the time I was really shocked.

MaturingCheeseball · 22/12/2023 17:51

Those not used to staff can find it all a bit awkward. I do that cringeworthy chummy stuff with workmen etc as I hate asking people to do things.

And I have seen some people treat eg hotel/waiting staff like dirt. I was at a very “exclusive” hotel abroad a while ago and there were some, er, new money guests ordering around the staff with rudeness and disrespect.

I think the whole shebang went to Meghan’s head a bit. She probably is demanding - or exacting - but clearly made a pain of herself. I believe one of the first stumbling blocks was a bit of a barney over not being allowed to keep gifts. Anyone could make that mistake, but arguing about it was a bigger mistake.

Maireas · 22/12/2023 17:57

Harry should have told her that she couldn't accept gifts, nor tout for them. Or it was possibly in the folder provided for her.
However, the marriage did all happen very quickly, and I agree that it must have gone to her head.

RecoIIectionsMayVary · 22/12/2023 18:42

treated them very much like they were servants rather than staff.

Back we go to the fairytale castle/Princess set up.

Chouxpastryishard · 22/12/2023 18:44

It’s the old New Money/Old Money thing.

wildernesssw · 22/12/2023 18:47

Bullying is a misuse of power.

If you are unpleasant and 'demanding' to someone who can't answer you back in the same way without negative consequences for their job, that goes beyond being 'demanding' and is 'bullying'.

It doesn't matter whether they pick on one or two people, or do it to everyone working for them.

In the example given above of 'leaving so early?' at 7pm - if the junior staff leaving at 7pm couldn't turn round and tell their 'demanding' boss - without negative consequences - that they had every right to leave at the end of their contracted hours, and would prefer not to deal with snide remarks about it, well, that is bullying.

The days when being 'the top in your field' gave you an excuse to belittle others are over, thank goodness, and the damaging and inequitable results of a long hours culture (which tends to exclude women, for example, as they still tend to be the ones to be the primary carers) are more and more widely known.

wildernesssw · 22/12/2023 19:29

I can imagine him being quite loud, and quite emotional if angry, and I can well imagine him jabbing a finger.

I can imagine going through the back of a wardrobe and being in Narnia - that doesn't mean it has happened outside of my imagination.

Cosywintertime · 22/12/2023 19:48

I think it went to her head as well, the title, being so close to the queen , the royal family, in the inner circle, having staff, more publicity and fame than she could ever have hoped for.

And of course Harry bigging her up in the background, you are the new Diana, you will throw out all the old traditions and reinvent the monarchy, you are the future of the monarchy. Inflating her ego and sense of self importance.

It was less than 2 years from meeting to wedding, in royal circles, it was incredibly fast. They were engaged within the year. They were basically living together within six months of meeting.