Page 37 | RAVEC - Prince Harry

pilates · 2023-12-06T07:02:46+00:00

Can someone explain to me the procedure and how this works?

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 10:27

The only thing we’ve established is your one track train of thought Icedpurple

Sorry for sticking to the actual subject of the thread and not bringing in all sorts of off topic nonsense to distract from a lack of argument.

But I maintain that there could be different ways around solving this issue (see article quoted below about private security being considered to look after certain buildings in the royal estate ) that a man of KC’s power, influence and private wealth could sort out if he so wanted.

Which firstly is irrelevant to the topic, which is about Harry's case against RAVEC, and secondly you've repeatedly failed to tell us why, if it's all about money, Harry can afford armed security in California for 50 weeks of the year, but not for the short periods he is in Britain.

The SO14 Royal Protection Group is part of the Met is it not? Yes they have a great track record of keeping members of the RF safe but maybe Harry has reasons to not entirely trust the people who are designated to watch over him? Maybe that’s what he means when he says security arrangements are inadequate?

It is irrelevant what your republican hero the duke says as he is not qualified to make a decision on security matters.

And if he has 'reasons' not to trust them then why is he bringing this case, as they would be the people 'watching over him' if and when he visits Britain? Surely he'd either be better staying in the famously safe United States or bringing his own private security team?

Once again, security arrangements are not decided on the basis of 'feelings'.

AutumnCrow · 17/12/2023 10:29

Iwantcakeeveryday · 09/12/2023 19:41

he made a press statement before they broke the story about this case, key parts:

Prince Harry inherited a security risk at birth, for life. He remains sixth in line to the throne, served two tours of combat duty in Afghanistan, and in recent years his family has been subjected to well-documented neo-Nazi and extremist threats. While his role within the Institution has changed, his profile as a member of the Royal Family has not. Nor has the threat to him and his family.

As is widely known, others who have left public office and have an inherent threat risk receive police protection at no cost to them.

The decision-making has been unreasonable, opaque and inconsistent. It has taken insufficient account of The Duke’s position; undiminished threats; and the impact on the UK’s reputation of a senior member of the Royal Family being harmed on UK soil.

As it stands, The Duke and Duchess’s privately funded US security team is not legally able to fully support the family when they are in the UK. While it is given more flexibility in the US, in the UK this team cannot replicate the standard of security that The Duke should receive from the State.

In the UK the threat level is particularly high; indeed higher than faced in the US, where not only can more capable private security be deployed, but law enforcement organisations are allowed to be more supportive. In the UK the controversy surrounding The Duke and Duchess of Sussex’s departure from full time Royal service, and the hostility of a range of extremist groups and fixated people, makes the environment particularly risky.”

I think it's worth quoting this post from a while ago from Iwantcake who repeated Harry's statement to the court in fuller detail than in most papers.

Interesting passage:

In the UK the threat level is particularly high; indeed higher than faced in the US, where not only can more capable private security be deployed, but law enforcement organisations are allowed to be more supportive.

He uses the words 'more capable' and 'supportive'. This would very much appear (to me) to be about armed protection. He feels he needs armed protection at all times on UK soil. Was Ravec's response to his feelings and his request a reasonable one, reasonably made?

The Judge will decide. And it'll be fascinating to see the Judge's rationale here.

Sisterpita · 17/12/2023 10:34

I thought this JR was not about RAVECs decisions on the level of security provided but the make up of the decision making panel?

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 10:38

Was Ravec's response to his feelings and his request a reasonable one, reasonably made?

RAVEC don't need to respond to an individual's 'feelings'. They make security assessments based on analysing the relevant intelligence.

And this is a Judicial Review. The most the judge can do is ask RAVEC to review their decision making process. It won't influence the decision itself.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 17/12/2023 10:43

Sisterpita · 17/12/2023 10:34

I thought this JR was not about RAVECs decisions on the level of security provided but the make up of the decision making panel?

Not quite, Sisterpita - if I've understood correctly it's about the whole decision making process, and while the make up of the panel may come into it I don't suppose it's the only issue they'll consider

Like surveyors with a house they'll probably find something, and doubtless Harry and his supporters will insist whatever-it-is makes all the difference, but whether it'll be enough to later turn around their decision remains to be seen

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 10:44

Sisterpita · 17/12/2023 10:34

I thought this JR was not about RAVECs decisions on the level of security provided but the make up of the decision making panel?

The judge threw out that part of Harry's claim.

The JR can only review the process by which the decision was reached. Even if it is successful, chances are high that RAVEC would come to the same decision all over again.

Sisterpita · 17/12/2023 10:53

@Puzzledandpissedoff @IcedPurple thanks - obviously got them the wrong way round.

AutumnCrow · 17/12/2023 11:24

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 10:38

Was Ravec's response to his feelings and his request a reasonable one, reasonably made?

RAVEC don't need to respond to an individual's 'feelings'. They make security assessments based on analysing the relevant intelligence.

And this is a Judicial Review. The most the judge can do is ask RAVEC to review their decision making process. It won't influence the decision itself.

Indeed, the 'feelings' argument, when you develop it, is nonsensical! And I tried really hard

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 15:04

AutumnCrow · 17/12/2023 11:24

Indeed, the 'feelings' argument, when you develop it, is nonsensical! And I tried really hard

Show quote history

Yes, the poster acknowledges that RAVEC have an excellent record in keeping royals safe, among them Harry himself when he was living in Britain. However, he may somehow feel that they are not trustworthy. So the logical response is that said untrustworthy officers should be on standby, at considerable expense to the taxpayer, just in case Harry decides to pop over on a whim. That's the only way that Harry can feel safe. And as he know, it's all about the feelings. Logic does not enter into it.

whattheactualfrog · 17/12/2023 18:27

The police protection looks so impressive with outriders on bikes, a convoy of blacked out vehicles, armed bodyguards… it’s not just practical/safe it’s a status symbol that says This Person Is Super Important. Can you imagine the contrast of Charles and William being driven around by convoys like that vs Harry by himself in the back of a taxi? Harry’s always been super jealous, the loss of such a huge status symbol must feel like a kick in the teeth. Plus for him that’s what he’s used to since childhood - imagine if you wore a bicycle helmet 24/7 from birth and aged 36 someone said “ok we’re taking it away” - even if it’s irrational you wouldn’t feel safe lol… so I understand his POV but I don’t agree he should have it guaranteed just in case he pops in, waste of resources.

Viviennemary · 17/12/2023 19:26

He wants the status the money and the perks but doesn't want to be in the royal family. Doesn't look like its going to happen that way. He is adrift. I feel a tiny bit sorry for him.

ArcaneWireless · 17/12/2023 19:27

The police protection looks so impressive with outriders on bikes, a convoy of blacked out vehicles, armed bodyguards… it’s not just practical/safe it’s a status symbol that says This Person Is Super Important.

In a nutshell.

It doesn’t seem to be about ‘safe’.

Just all about the show.

Myfabby · 17/12/2023 19:45

ArcaneWireless · 17/12/2023 19:27

The police protection looks so impressive with outriders on bikes, a convoy of blacked out vehicles, armed bodyguards… it’s not just practical/safe it’s a status symbol that says This Person Is Super Important.

In a nutshell.

It doesn’t seem to be about ‘safe’.

Just all about the show.

Police protection might be impressive to you as a commoner. Just as palaces would be to you. Not for any of the royal family who have had access all their lives to various palaces and police protection

For someone who grew up with it, it is pretty standard and normal.

It might signal to you that this person is super important. He is super important..

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 19:46

The police protection looks so impressive with outriders on bikes, a convoy of blacked out vehicles, armed bodyguards… it’s not just practical/safe it’s a status symbol that says This Person Is Super Important.

But did he routinely have that level of security even before leaving? I don't think he did. He would have had an officer assigned to him, but he wouldn't have had convoys or outriders unless on official business, and maybe not even then.

notimagain · 17/12/2023 20:12

@IcedPurple

But did he routinely have that level of security even before leaving? I don't think he did. He would have had an officer assigned to him, but he wouldn't have had convoys or outriders unless on official business, and maybe not even then.

That's a good question/fair point.

A lot of the senior royals with equivalent status to that which Harry enjoyed pre his move to States generally manage with very low key protection.

AFAIK they certainly don't usually go around with a POTUS style cavalcade, or anything close.

Viviennemary · 17/12/2023 20:19

Myfabby · 17/12/2023 19:45

Police protection might be impressive to you as a commoner. Just as palaces would be to you. Not for any of the royal family who have had access all their lives to various palaces and police protection

For someone who grew up with it, it is pretty standard and normal.

It might signal to you that this person is super important. He is super important..

Show quote history

He was important. But he is no longer. On paper he is still 5th in line but in theory he's Prince Nobody living in the USA and with a tiny part in royal events if any. Much like the duke of Windsor when you're out you're out.

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 20:23

notimagain · 17/12/2023 20:12

@IcedPurple

But did he routinely have that level of security even before leaving? I don't think he did. He would have had an officer assigned to him, but he wouldn't have had convoys or outriders unless on official business, and maybe not even then.

That's a good question/fair point.

A lot of the senior royals with equivalent status to that which Harry enjoyed pre his move to States generally manage with very low key protection.

AFAIK they certainly don't usually go around with a POTUS style cavalcade, or anything close.

Even Kate, who unlike Harry is guaranteed round the clock security because of her role, has been seen driving the children to school herself. Of course security will be there somewhere, but there certainly aren't flashing lights and outriders.

And Kate is mother of a future King, and of course a future Queen herself. Royal security is usually pretty discreet. The big convoys are only for major events, few of which Harry will be attending now.

smilesy · 17/12/2023 20:24

notimagain · 17/12/2023 20:12

@IcedPurple

But did he routinely have that level of security even before leaving? I don't think he did. He would have had an officer assigned to him, but he wouldn't have had convoys or outriders unless on official business, and maybe not even then.

That's a good question/fair point.

A lot of the senior royals with equivalent status to that which Harry enjoyed pre his move to States generally manage with very low key protection.

AFAIK they certainly don't usually go around with a POTUS style cavalcade, or anything close.

They do have outriders and bikes go ahead to manage the traffic and close off the side roads, but they never really have the US style cavalcade as you say. The bike riders are armed though. But yes, that only happens on official business. And I’ve pointed this out several times, what does Harry owned that level of security for given
that he no longer carries out official engagements? He would only be here to see family and would get the relevant security to
and from the airport and whilst with other Royals.

edited for weird spacing

Myfabby · 17/12/2023 20:26

Viviennemary · 17/12/2023 20:19

He was important. But he is no longer. On paper he is still 5th in line but in theory he's Prince Nobody living in the USA and with a tiny part in royal events if any. Much like the duke of Windsor when you're out you're out.

Show quote history

You may not like him, but it's silly to dispute he's not important.

No body living in the USA is important? I don't get that logic. The Obama's arent? Biden isn't? Trump isn't? Beyonce isn't? I can name thousands of people living in the USA that are

Are you comparing Duke of Windsor to Harry? Now that is obtuse.

Whatever his position in line is and I think he is very well aware of his spare status, he is one of 2 children of the King of England. I would struggle with anyone saying he's a noneentity even if he is not a working royal.

IcedPurple · 17/12/2023 20:37

You may not like him, but it's silly to dispute he's not important.

"Important" in what sense?

Yes, he's the King's son so he's not just anybody. However, he is only 5th in line so highly unlikely to ever be King. He also holds no official role and works as a CHIMPO for a corporate coaching app in California. He is certainly not important enough to warrant guaranteed round the clock security, and never has been.

Are you comparing Duke of Windsor to Harry? Now that is obtuse.

True. Edward was an actual king whose departure created Britain's biggest constitutional crisis of the last century. By contrast, when Harry left, it was a big story for the tabloids but of almost no relevance to affairs of state. I agree that there is no comparison really.

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 17/12/2023 20:38

A lot of the senior royals with equivalent status to that which Harry enjoyed pre his move to States generally manage with very low key protection.

AFAIK they certainly don't usually go around with a POTUS style cavalcade, or anything close.

Look how the King went over to talk to the crowds outsde Buckingham Palace after the Queen died, and they all walked in Queen's funeral procession. At the Jubilee, they all sat in the open watching the pageant. The King and William rode in the Trooping the Colour procession, as the Queen always did when she was younger, and the others drive in open carriages, weather permitting. They walk to church at Sandringham,and there are several stories of tourists around Balmoral coming unexpectedly on the Queen or other members of the RF (and sometimes not recognisng them). No doubt security is there, but it's low key and unobtrusive.

Mylovelygreendress · 17/12/2023 21:08

Myfabby · 17/12/2023 20:26

You may not like him, but it's silly to dispute he's not important.

No body living in the USA is important? I don't get that logic. The Obama's arent? Biden isn't? Trump isn't? Beyonce isn't? I can name thousands of people living in the USA that are

Are you comparing Duke of Windsor to Harry? Now that is obtuse.

Whatever his position in line is and I think he is very well aware of his spare status, he is one of 2 children of the King of England. I would struggle with anyone saying he's a noneentity even if he is not a working royal.

Show quote history

No such person as the King of England.

Myfabby · 17/12/2023 21:13

Mylovelygreendress · 17/12/2023 21:08

No such person as the King of England.

Show quote history

thank you for letting me know this.

As a lowly immigrant, I am not versed with the nomenclature of the royal family.

I shall duly in future refer to him more accurately.

Mylovelygreendress · 17/12/2023 21:20

Myfabby · 17/12/2023 21:13

thank you for letting me know this.

As a lowly immigrant, I am not versed with the nomenclature of the royal family.

I shall duly in future refer to him more accurately.

Show quote history

No need to be snippy .
It has been pointed out numerous times that KC is King of much more than England . It is disrespectful to Scotland , Wales etc .

CathyorClaire · 17/12/2023 21:21

No such person as the King of England.

No such person as the King 😎