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The royal family

2 racist royals?

1000 replies

drowninginjelly · 29/11/2023 22:03

So who are the 2 royals who commented on Archie's skin now that Piers Morgan has named them on live tv

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21
PrinceHaz · 30/11/2023 08:59

thisplaceiscraziness · 30/11/2023 08:47

i’ve decided to write something - neoclassical i think your all awful about M and H , none of us know what the hell went on - watching the crown and the trekking of the colour every year doesn’t make us experts on them or their family- any of them.
But whilst we are making sweeping assumptions about people’s lives, thoughts and behaviours based on books and soundbites and our own *stuff..

I got bored and wrote a little assumption of my own below - interestingly i chose a slightly kinder narrative- surprisingly easy to make a story based on your preferences, i made the choice to consider a different view :

Imagine being pregnant with your first child.
You’ve been welcomed into a family, but they have various customs and traditions. You are well aware that they are all successful, strong people, very well known. You have been managing quite a lot into the run up to the pregnancy, trying to fit into the family and the new job they gave you.

You are more of a yoga , free girl- but you love him so you crack on. You try to get them to think about some of your customs and traditions , but there is not really room for that.

You try to get on with everyone but your american and brown and an actress, a speaker,
your life up until. you have spoken out about issues, you speak for the UN… you are and always have been an advocate for others.
So this traditional family are wary of you, they are pretty dysfunctional( your own family has some dysfunctional stuff which makes you panic about how it all works daily !)
But being so successful, your in laws are not really are not really aware of the dynamics and how it impacts others, they are just the way they are.
Your sister in law, has welcomed you, she seems so powerful and together and she has this way of making you feel lesser, maybe it’s her, maybe it’s you - all you know is that it’s difficult for you. Especially as your husband has always been so relaxed with her, you really feel weird about how difficult it is.That one time you even tried to go for laid back, bare foot approach - this made her really weirded out..and it made you wonder if you could ever be yourself, so you started to shut down a bit..
many women end up with weird in law dynamics and you thought most would understand…mumsnet is full of women trying to figure out family dynamics so you felt like you'll be supported…

You have always known being mixed race leaves you in a bit of a no man’s land, that strange need to fit in, but not sure how sometimes.
People comment on you being light skinned, but they don’t comment on the slight differences you’ve noticed about your treatment,ever since you can remember, you never confront this with others or in yourself because , well, you want to be successful and known in your own right.But all those little comments burn a bit. make you question yourself.Its upsetting and demoralising but your mum raised you to be strong and proud.

During the pregnancy the baby’s future is discussed a lot, you are aware that your unborn child will have traditions and customs to follow from birth You know this and remain hopeful that your customs too will get a look in, but with hormones raging and that tiredness only pregnancy can bring, well, your resilience is low.

Then the discussion starts, about your first child, unborn child, at first you are polite , everyone talks about all things baby in the family and you accept this , even when you grow tired of it, but you are an American girl on your own with this pretty amazing family so you manage.

Then one day someone asks you outright how dark your child will be, and because of who they are - because of who you are, quite naturally your mind jumps to défense. You feel your skin crawl and that feeling of never fitting in rears up, but this time for your unborn child. Your mind wanders to the day the baby is born and the expectation that you will wheel him out to the world for all to see ( and judge ) it’s such a weird tradition - no one argues against it .. your mind goes back to how dark your baby will be chat

You do not feel like it’s the standard what will baby look like chat , this feels like something else, its that something else only people who are black/brown know how to describe, its a strange feeling. Ironic that admitting you feel it is often a betrayal to your own defences, your own determination that you can make it in the world, that the way your perceived through the difference of your skin won’t be a barrier.

That of course until it is.

You decide to tell the world, you learn a lot about yourself through the opening in your soul that those demanding accountability for racism are causing, for the first time in your lifetime, there is this movement again, it feels safer to speak m, it feels right even you feel its noisy enough for once to speak up

You speak to the world, but the media is filtered through a lense of whiteness , which is powerful and sweeping in its judgement. you think that perhaps the people will see, but they don’t and every time the world breathes your name, they don’t see you.. they see your family dynamics, they see your skin, they see your life choices and they twist it all up.
you have no power, only that which you create.

To my mind, this likely sums up a lot of what’s gone on.

C8H10N4O2 · 30/11/2023 09:00

CurlewKate · 30/11/2023 08:53

Can you imagine if MM posted to Mumsnet about her in laws....🤣

No - much more interesting would be if Princess Doolittle posted about her in-laws. Could cause a MN schism.

Merrymouse · 30/11/2023 09:00

I don’t know whether what was said was racist, however if this thread is representative it suggests that a majority of people are predisposed to feeling it wasn’t, and that revealing the key figures won’t make any difference to how the Royals are viewed.

We are a country that accepts the fact that Andrew is still ahead of Anne in the line of succession, so if even if there was a little light unintentional racism that really won’t change anything. If there is an institutional lack of diversity in the Royal Family - well yes that is rather the point of a hereditary title.

TrailingFig · 30/11/2023 09:00

I have never in my entire life ever heard a discussion speculating what colour a baby would be. It seems like the most extraordinary ignorance. Apart from the fact it doesn’t make any difference, it’s impossible to know so why would anyone even speculate? It’s only a discussion you would have if the colour mattered

Do you really live in a world where people only discuss things that make a difference and there’s no speculation? How very worthy.
I live in a world where we open our minds and discuss all sorts of things, whether it’s relevant or if we will ever know the answer or not.

Discussing colour doesn’t mean it matters

Flixon · 30/11/2023 09:01

Wherearemykeysagain · 29/11/2023 22:59

I personally think Meghan is conflating a few different things that she will have experienced - class expectations, social expectations, xenophobia (which would have impacted a white American too) and actual racism.

I’m not saying she didn’t experience racism. She clearly did from some newspapers. But I think many of the major issues between her and the royal family are to do with the former things rather than racism. I’d be very surprised if Kate would say anything racist even in private. But I’m sure she will have strong expectations around politeness, class, social behaviour and British cultural norms that would feel very ‘othering’ for someone from a different country and culture.

I think this post bears a repeat, To me, one of the interesting things about Meghan is that she described herself as 'Caucasian' on her own acting CV ... now obviously she is mixed race, but she wasn't always so keen to own it.

Personally I think a lot of 'blame' for this must sit with Harry - he clearly did not explain to her what was expected of a Royal Duchess (perhaps he's so thick he thought she would just 'know' how to behave) or think clearly about what difficulties she might encounter.

If a comment was made within the family that Meghan found racist, the way to manage this is personally - not by broadcasting slurs and innuendo to the whole world. How can that possibly be helpful unless your aim is to destroy the institution ...

Emotionalsupportviper · 30/11/2023 09:03

CurlewKate · 30/11/2023 08:55

"I don't believe he's racist. They have all met and enjoyed the company of people from many nations."

Yes. I understand they particularly enjoy the native dancing.....

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to imply by that comment.

If a nation feels they want to welcome a visiting dignity (Royal or otherwise) with a demonstration of dancing, singing etc, what is that dignitary supposed to do? Walk out? Complain? Throw a blanket over the dancers?

Or accept the accolade in the spirit it is given, and thank everyone for their hospitality and the welcome?

Lampzade · 30/11/2023 09:04

thisplaceiscraziness · 30/11/2023 08:47

i’ve decided to write something - neoclassical i think your all awful about M and H , none of us know what the hell went on - watching the crown and the trekking of the colour every year doesn’t make us experts on them or their family- any of them.
But whilst we are making sweeping assumptions about people’s lives, thoughts and behaviours based on books and soundbites and our own *stuff..

I got bored and wrote a little assumption of my own below - interestingly i chose a slightly kinder narrative- surprisingly easy to make a story based on your preferences, i made the choice to consider a different view :

Imagine being pregnant with your first child.
You’ve been welcomed into a family, but they have various customs and traditions. You are well aware that they are all successful, strong people, very well known. You have been managing quite a lot into the run up to the pregnancy, trying to fit into the family and the new job they gave you.

You are more of a yoga , free girl- but you love him so you crack on. You try to get them to think about some of your customs and traditions , but there is not really room for that.

You try to get on with everyone but your american and brown and an actress, a speaker,
your life up until. you have spoken out about issues, you speak for the UN… you are and always have been an advocate for others.
So this traditional family are wary of you, they are pretty dysfunctional( your own family has some dysfunctional stuff which makes you panic about how it all works daily !)
But being so successful, your in laws are not really are not really aware of the dynamics and how it impacts others, they are just the way they are.
Your sister in law, has welcomed you, she seems so powerful and together and she has this way of making you feel lesser, maybe it’s her, maybe it’s you - all you know is that it’s difficult for you. Especially as your husband has always been so relaxed with her, you really feel weird about how difficult it is.That one time you even tried to go for laid back, bare foot approach - this made her really weirded out..and it made you wonder if you could ever be yourself, so you started to shut down a bit..
many women end up with weird in law dynamics and you thought most would understand…mumsnet is full of women trying to figure out family dynamics so you felt like you'll be supported…

You have always known being mixed race leaves you in a bit of a no man’s land, that strange need to fit in, but not sure how sometimes.
People comment on you being light skinned, but they don’t comment on the slight differences you’ve noticed about your treatment,ever since you can remember, you never confront this with others or in yourself because , well, you want to be successful and known in your own right.But all those little comments burn a bit. make you question yourself.Its upsetting and demoralising but your mum raised you to be strong and proud.

During the pregnancy the baby’s future is discussed a lot, you are aware that your unborn child will have traditions and customs to follow from birth You know this and remain hopeful that your customs too will get a look in, but with hormones raging and that tiredness only pregnancy can bring, well, your resilience is low.

Then the discussion starts, about your first child, unborn child, at first you are polite , everyone talks about all things baby in the family and you accept this , even when you grow tired of it, but you are an American girl on your own with this pretty amazing family so you manage.

Then one day someone asks you outright how dark your child will be, and because of who they are - because of who you are, quite naturally your mind jumps to défense. You feel your skin crawl and that feeling of never fitting in rears up, but this time for your unborn child. Your mind wanders to the day the baby is born and the expectation that you will wheel him out to the world for all to see ( and judge ) it’s such a weird tradition - no one argues against it .. your mind goes back to how dark your baby will be chat

You do not feel like it’s the standard what will baby look like chat , this feels like something else, its that something else only people who are black/brown know how to describe, its a strange feeling. Ironic that admitting you feel it is often a betrayal to your own defences, your own determination that you can make it in the world, that the way your perceived through the difference of your skin won’t be a barrier.

That of course until it is.

You decide to tell the world, you learn a lot about yourself through the opening in your soul that those demanding accountability for racism are causing, for the first time in your lifetime, there is this movement again, it feels safer to speak m, it feels right even you feel its noisy enough for once to speak up

You speak to the world, but the media is filtered through a lense of whiteness , which is powerful and sweeping in its judgement. you think that perhaps the people will see, but they don’t and every time the world breathes your name, they don’t see you.. they see your family dynamics, they see your skin, they see your life choices and they twist it all up.
you have no power, only that which you create.

Excellent post
I think you hit the nail on the head

CwmYoy · 30/11/2023 09:05

To believe it is them you would have to believe Meghan is a truthful and honest person.

I think quite the reverse, given her history.

Mirabai · 30/11/2023 09:06

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 30/11/2023 08:43

I think the vague references to racism are unfair. If comments were made, we need to know exactly what was said, by whom and in what context - the actual words that were uttered and details of the wider conversation - and not just a paraphrased interpretation.

Without those details, I'm not willing to rule out the idea that Charles/Kate made racist comments, but equally, I'm not willing to draw the conclusion that they did make them. We just don't know.

Now that the names are in the public domain, I think the only fair solution for everyone is to get the detail of what was said out in the open. Of course, that's if they can actually agree on what was actually said.

If M &H had named names everyone would be saying no royal should have been outwardly named and shamed.

I don’t see that we do need to know exactly what was said and by whom etc. It’s highly unlikely the different parties will agree and if they did say precisely what they were accused of - they’re hardly likely to admit it are they?

The only real reason for wanting to know is simply so that people can judge whether they think it was “real” racism.

LadyBird1973 · 30/11/2023 09:06

Even if what Megan and Omid Scobie said was absolutely true, neither has any credibility, since they've both been caught out telling porkies.

I don't agree with the pov that of a person feels something is racist/sexist/whatever, then it probably is. Feelings are subjective.

Curiosity and speculation about how the genetics will play out in a new baby, isn't racist unless there's a judgement that one skin tone would be a better outcome than another. If Megan is of the opinion that this happened then she needs to say exactly what happened and let the king and Kate have proper right of reply.

Personally, I think Megan likes to use being black to increase her social capital, while having not experienced any of the disadvantages that black American women continue to live with. Most people in her life didn't even know she was mixed race until she got involved either Harry.

I think Harry has had a hard childhood, combined with an inferiority complex and an inability to see the big picture or long term consequences of his actions. In short, he's a muppet.

Lampzade · 30/11/2023 09:07

Flixon · 30/11/2023 09:01

I think this post bears a repeat, To me, one of the interesting things about Meghan is that she described herself as 'Caucasian' on her own acting CV ... now obviously she is mixed race, but she wasn't always so keen to own it.

Personally I think a lot of 'blame' for this must sit with Harry - he clearly did not explain to her what was expected of a Royal Duchess (perhaps he's so thick he thought she would just 'know' how to behave) or think clearly about what difficulties she might encounter.

If a comment was made within the family that Meghan found racist, the way to manage this is personally - not by broadcasting slurs and innuendo to the whole world. How can that possibly be helpful unless your aim is to destroy the institution ...

I thought that her calling herself Caucasian was proved to be untrue.

Ramalangadingdong · 30/11/2023 09:08

i just look at the tangible evidence of women he dated in the past. All of them have been ambitious - one a lawyer, the other an actress and he ended up marrying another actress. Both earlier girlfriends refused to submit to being royal wives. If he had married either of them chances are it would have ended the way it did with MM.

Not many women are equipped to be royal wives. PW made a fantastic choice - hard to find in this day and age. Thank God.

Emotionalsupportviper · 30/11/2023 09:08

Merrymouse · 30/11/2023 09:00

I don’t know whether what was said was racist, however if this thread is representative it suggests that a majority of people are predisposed to feeling it wasn’t, and that revealing the key figures won’t make any difference to how the Royals are viewed.

We are a country that accepts the fact that Andrew is still ahead of Anne in the line of succession, so if even if there was a little light unintentional racism that really won’t change anything. If there is an institutional lack of diversity in the Royal Family - well yes that is rather the point of a hereditary title.

We are a country that accepts the fact that Andrew is still ahead of Anne in the line of succession

Is he? Louis is no longer ahead of Charlotte. Is it just the youngest generation of royals this applies to? Though it would be highly unlikely that either Anne or Andrew would be called on - they will be well down the ladder now.

Blueroses99 · 30/11/2023 09:09

OhNoOhNo · 30/11/2023 08:38

Where have you seen that Meghan uses Markle? Just because a TV show calls her that doesn’t mean she calls herself that.

So it’s Kate right to drop Middleton but not Meghan’s right to drop Markle?

I was pointing to your casual misogyny that she ‘likely’ uses a married surname that she has never been known to use.

OvaHere · 30/11/2023 09:10

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 30/11/2023 02:29

I think a huge amount of the issues H&M have had is down to the fact that he has massively, massively let her down in preparing her for what’s it’s like marrying into the royal family. Both in terms of the family/job and the press intrusion.

The fact she discovered that you had to curtsy to his granny whilst in the car going for lunch and meeting said Granny should have been a massive red flag for her.

Cressida and Chelsey walked away when they realised what was involved in marrying Harry. I don’t think it’s that surprising that he’s ended up marrying someone who didn’t know what it was going to be like.

If she posted on here that he’d not told her about how they greet the head of the family business until minutes before meeting them, that he’d let her make herself look silly with the comparison of their child to his nephew and niece (she clearly had no clue why the LPs for the Cambridge children had been changed, possibly even that they had been) in terms of titles and it being an unfairness and a dozen other things she’d have categorically been told to LTB.

I think she genuinely thought he was capable to explaining it all to her and that she wouldn’t need help from others because he had it all in hand. She massively over estimated his capabilities.

Agree with this. Harry is mostly at fault here for giving a woman who lacked the cultural knowledge of British royalty a rose tinted version of the RF as part of a whirlwind romance.

Meghan probably didn't understand it takes years of being dutiful and keeping your head down to become fully part of the inner sanctum, even when you're already married in. Catherine and Sophie seem to have made it now but it's taken both of them a couple of decades to become 'proper' family.

I can imagine tensions from both sides with Meghan and Catherine. Due to the relationship moving fast and her being from a different culture I think Meghan did have some protocols fast forwarded for her, such as travelling solo with HMTQ quite early in the marriage and that sort of thing. Catherine had to put in a lot more years to get to the same place.

I think the RF did try to make her feel welcome in their own way, particularly Charles and The Queen, but Meghan not being part of the British upper classes in the first place wouldn't have recognised these small gestures and breaks with protocol as gestures.

It's all a big mess really and has largely come about because nobody wanted to say no to Harry or insist he had a longer engagement so Meghan had a chance at acclimatising. I can see why though because neither had the time to wait if they wanted a family.

NonPlayerCharacter · 30/11/2023 09:10

Emotionalsupportviper · 30/11/2023 09:08

We are a country that accepts the fact that Andrew is still ahead of Anne in the line of succession

Is he? Louis is no longer ahead of Charlotte. Is it just the youngest generation of royals this applies to? Though it would be highly unlikely that either Anne or Andrew would be called on - they will be well down the ladder now.

The change to end male primogeniture while Catherine was pregnant did not apply retroactively to the existing line as it was then. Andrew is still ahead of Anne.

CurlewKate · 30/11/2023 09:11

"I am black and happily married to a white man. His family seemed very welcoming at first,but now I'm pregnant, they just will not stop speculating about what colour our baby's skin is going to be.My FIL and SIL in particular seem obsessed by this. AIBU to be upset by this? Should I just suck it up?

Matronic6 · 30/11/2023 09:12

Mirabai · 30/11/2023 08:52

I agree with both these.

I have never in my entire life ever heard a discussion speculating what colour a baby would be. It seems like the most extraordinary ignorance. Apart from the fact it doesn’t make any difference, it’s impossible to know so why would anyone even speculate? It’s only a discussion you would have if the colour mattered.

Yet a lot of people on this thread alone said they did have these conversations about what their child may look like.
My family wondered whether my child would get my fair skin or her dad's olive skin. We also wondered what colour her hair and eyes might be, as her dad and I are so different.
A few weeks ago I had lunch with a friend who was contemplating what her child may look like as the baby will have black, japanese and nordic genes.
Such speculation is not ignorance it's excitement.

Emotionalsupportviper · 30/11/2023 09:12

NonPlayerCharacter · 30/11/2023 09:10

The change to end male primogeniture while Catherine was pregnant did not apply retroactively to the existing line as it was then. Andrew is still ahead of Anne.

Edited

Thank you - I'm getting a crash course on royal protocol today! 😀

TheAlchemistElixa · 30/11/2023 09:12

Wherearemykeysagain · 29/11/2023 22:59

I personally think Meghan is conflating a few different things that she will have experienced - class expectations, social expectations, xenophobia (which would have impacted a white American too) and actual racism.

I’m not saying she didn’t experience racism. She clearly did from some newspapers. But I think many of the major issues between her and the royal family are to do with the former things rather than racism. I’d be very surprised if Kate would say anything racist even in private. But I’m sure she will have strong expectations around politeness, class, social behaviour and British cultural norms that would feel very ‘othering’ for someone from a different country and culture.

I very strongly agree with all of this. I think the thing most pervasive in British society, and especially the upper classes, is snobbish class-ism. A white American would have had an awful time of it, too (obviously Wallis Simpson an apt comparison).

Some of the most hideous members of the public and the most hideous newspapers have showed racism. I’m absolutely certain Princess Michael of Kent is a disgusting racist too, given absolutely everything she’s ever said and done. And I think the most outdated clumsiness and class privilege is strong in royal/elite/upper class/aristocratic circles.

I think anyone not of that world would suffer badly being thrown into it. And perhaps not know what to name the “othering” they must feel. It’s absolutely understandable that as a black woman she may well have felt that was a part of it. And it might have been - but I think all the other biases took precedence over race.

If she had been a Japanese royal bloodline princess, or the daughter of the Dragon King of Bhutan, she would have had an easier time.

Ilovecleaning · 30/11/2023 09:13

albapunk · 29/11/2023 22:13

I wish we had context for the actual discussion that happened.

My cousin has mixed race children. It was a running thing in the family (on all sides) as to what the children would look like when they were born and who's skin tone and features they would inherit. They were first grandkids for the dads family, who are not Caucasian. There was absolutely nothing racist about these chats or comments.

Exactly. A relative of mine was about to become the GP of a new baby who was going to be ‘one quarter Asian’. We talked about his/her colour with delight. Would the baby have his mum’s gorgeous brown eyes or his dad’s hazel eyes? Would he have a hint of red hair from our auburn side of the family?
The whole racist crap around the colour of H and M’s baby seems contrived. H and M stirring up self indulgent shite.

NonPlayerCharacter · 30/11/2023 09:14

I do think it's weird that Harry apparently never told Meghan about protocols such as curtseying (which isn't actually difficult, assuming no mobility issues etc) or why their security would no longer be provided once they emigrated (it is not private, it's supplied by the Met Police to royals of UK domicile).

Lifestooshort71 · 30/11/2023 09:14

thisplaceiscraziness · Today 08:47

i’ve decided to write something - neoclassical i think your all awful about M and H , none of us know what the hell went on - watching the crown and the trekking of the colour every year doesn’t make us experts on them or their family- any of them.
you lost me at neoclassical but others think you're on the right track....so it must all be true

PatronLover · 30/11/2023 09:14

Too many posts to read, but Meghan has lost everything and I suspect Harry will instigate divorce, have a massive MH episode, quietly rejoin the RF in a private individual capacity and live a quiet life involved with military charities and no royal role. Meghan will demand millions and remain in California desperately trying to recapture the royal cachet she held and threw away

Mirabai · 30/11/2023 09:15

It's all a big mess really and has largely come about because nobody wanted to say no to Harry or insist he had a longer engagement so Meghan had a chance at acclimatising. I can see why though because neither had the time to wait if they wanted a family.

How you possibly say “no” to an adult? How can you say this country and possibly the RF is too racist to actually accept her? Charles was dissuaded from marrying Camilla and look how that panned out.

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