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The royal family
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26
MayQueeen · 08/06/2023 17:02

Another one saying how much i’ve enjoyed the thread and a thank you to all of of you for sharing info and insights 💐💐💐💐

sheworemellowyellow · 08/06/2023 17:09

WheelsUp · 08/06/2023 16:49

I wonder if celebrities tipping off the paps was more unusual back then ?

SM and smartphones have totally revolutionised celebrity gossip. We can all be paparazzi and gossip writers if we hang out in the right places.

It amused me that someone mentioned £75 being paid to a tipster who told the paper that Harry was in China White. £75!

I'm sure there's a wealth of analysis out there on this, but the relationship between the media, the readers and the people being written about has changed a lot since the 80s/90s.

"Media" is just the method of communication. WHAT is being communicated now comes from many different sources: news, gossip, data, advertising, opinion pieces etc. It's all totally fragmented. And it's not exclusive to celebrities: politicians, corporates, NGOs, artists, sports teams....everybody with any interaction with the public is implicated.

Add technology to the mix and it's even more complicated.

Every player uses the media available to them as they need to.

Photo-takers aren't really required anymore other than to produce better quality photos than our phones can take. Or to give them impression of unstaged happenings (pap walks etc). If no newspapers printed photos of Harry arriving at court, for example, twitter would have a dozen within seconds. In fact, it did yesterday! The papers were there to remain in the running as instant purveyors of news in the world of twitter.

Papers like The Economist and the Spectator publish opinion pieces within hours and days, rather than minutes and seconds.

When Meghan paid paparazzi to take photos of her leaving lunch in that all-black outfit the day after they released the 'news' that their children were thenceforth going to be Prince and Princess, that was a multi-fold exercise: self-publicity (which was intended to be self-effacing by trying to seem unintended, lurking paparazzi she didn't know about), merchandising (the outfit cost many thousands of $ and details were offered instantly), and a PR move (the titles). None of that could be achieved by her taking a selfie. And all of it was to make her immediate money or raise her profile with a view to increasing her future revenue. A far cry from murky, blurred photos of royals in compromising romantic clinches in the dark by long-lens photographers lurking in bushes.

Rhondaa · 08/06/2023 17:10

MayQueeen · 08/06/2023 17:02

Another one saying how much i’ve enjoyed the thread and a thank you to all of of you for sharing info and insights 💐💐💐💐

Yes it's been very interesting and informative and how nice not to have had 'haterz' accusations and But Prince Andrew posts!

WigsNGowns · 08/06/2023 17:20

Explained to her that back in the pre-SM olden days, tabloid journalists used to use underhand tactics to obtain information, and then write it as sensationally as possible, all with a view to maximizing readership, advertising and sales.

Part of the reason for the change is that newspapers historically had higher circulations, more advertising revenue, more money generally and more employees. Cast your mind back to a time where the only way to get the news was in a hard copy newspaper or listen to the radio/watch TV.

So as they had more money, they could pay people to go off to investigate something by hanging round the local pub where the target hung out for months, bribing people of interest with a pint and a steak dinner, befriending the gatekeeper. That kind of thing.

These days papers have no budget, cut employees wherever they can so there is less investigation in that sense. The quickest cheapest way to get news is via social media - for example, we are all familiar with the Mumsnet Thread becomes a whole article syndrome. That's page filler without even having to lift a finger.

A clear illustration of the change in culture is the 1990 case of Gordon Kaye (actor who played Rene from Allo Allo) - (after photographs were taken in his hospital bed (!)) he sued for invasion of privacy before it was really a thing and lost - except it was held they couldn't present it as a consensual exclusive interview so of course it was published proclaiming it as a non-consensual scoop. What happened in that case just wouldn't happen now for lots and lots of reasons - not least it would be treated as an invasio of privacy - but the way the information was obtained is very old school:

https://lawcarenigeria.com/kaye-v-robertson-anor-1990-ewca-civ-21-16-march-1990/

On 25th January 1990 Mr. Kaye was driving his car on a road in London during a gale, when a piece of wood became detached from an advertisement hoarding, smashed through the windscreen of the plaintiff’s car and struck him on the head. The plaintiff suffered severe injuries to his head and brain. He was taken to Charing Cross Hospital where he was on a life support machine for three days. He was then in intensive care, until on 2nd February he was moved into a private room, forming part of Ward G at the hospital.

...

Until 13th February 1990 Mr. Kaye had not been interviewed since his accident by any representative of a newspaper or television programme. On that day, acting on Mr. Robertson’s instructions, a journalist and a photographer from Sunday Sport went to Charing Cross Hospital and gained access to the corridor outside Ward G. They were not seen nor intercepted by any of the hospital staff. Ignoring the notices on the door to the ward and on the plaintiff’s door, they entered the plaintiff’s room. Mr. Kaye apparently agreed to talk to them and according to a transcript that we have heard of a taped record they made of what transpired, did not object to their photographing various cards and flowers in his room. In fact a number of photographs, both in colour and monochrome, were taken of the plaintiff himself showing the substantial scars to his head amongst other matters. The taking of the photographs involved the use of a flashlight.

After some time members of the nursing staff of the hospital learned what was happening. They attempted to persuade the journalist and the photographer to leave, but without success. Security staff were called, and the representatives of Sunday Sport were ejected.

Medical evidence exhibited by Mr. Froggatt to his affidavit in this action says that Mr. Kaye was in no fit condition to be interviewed or to give any informed consent to be interviewed. The accuracy of this opinion is confirmed by the fact that approximately a quarter-of-an-hour after the representatives of Sunday Sport had left his room, Mr. Kaye had no recollection of the incident.

Kaye v Robertson & Anor [1990] EWCA Civ 21 (16 March 1990) - LawCareNigeria

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE COURT OF APPEAL (CIVIL DIVISION) ON APPEAL FROM THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION (MR. JUSTICE POTTER) Royal Courts of Justice 16th March 1990 B e f o r e : LORD JUSTICE GLIDEWELL LORD JUSTICE BINGHAM a...

https://lawcarenigeria.com/kaye-v-robertson-anor-1990-ewca-civ-21-16-march-1990

MayQueeen · 08/06/2023 17:25

Janiie

it’s been lovely being able to share opinions! I’ve been toying with the idea of retraining into law for a while - daunting at my age and career direction - it’s great learning through an unfolding real world case, makes it feel more accessible

SunnyEgg · 08/06/2023 17:29

PicturesOfDogs · 08/06/2023 16:39

So they fact they’ve admitted one case against NS, how will that work?

I assume they will no longer go over this particular case in cross examination, and it will be down to the judge to award damages on it?

Interested too

Also does anyone know the details of it, ie what they did

WheelsUp · 08/06/2023 17:41

I can't believe that story about Gordon Kaye. That is horrifying 😱

I've been thinking about the number of TV programmes and movies which have "blagging to get information" as a plot line. Obviously pretending to be the police or a doctor isn't ok but I mean more on the lines of pretending to be a friend or personal assistant. 👀

sheworemellowyellow · 08/06/2023 17:49

WigsNGowns · 08/06/2023 17:20

Explained to her that back in the pre-SM olden days, tabloid journalists used to use underhand tactics to obtain information, and then write it as sensationally as possible, all with a view to maximizing readership, advertising and sales.

Part of the reason for the change is that newspapers historically had higher circulations, more advertising revenue, more money generally and more employees. Cast your mind back to a time where the only way to get the news was in a hard copy newspaper or listen to the radio/watch TV.

So as they had more money, they could pay people to go off to investigate something by hanging round the local pub where the target hung out for months, bribing people of interest with a pint and a steak dinner, befriending the gatekeeper. That kind of thing.

These days papers have no budget, cut employees wherever they can so there is less investigation in that sense. The quickest cheapest way to get news is via social media - for example, we are all familiar with the Mumsnet Thread becomes a whole article syndrome. That's page filler without even having to lift a finger.

A clear illustration of the change in culture is the 1990 case of Gordon Kaye (actor who played Rene from Allo Allo) - (after photographs were taken in his hospital bed (!)) he sued for invasion of privacy before it was really a thing and lost - except it was held they couldn't present it as a consensual exclusive interview so of course it was published proclaiming it as a non-consensual scoop. What happened in that case just wouldn't happen now for lots and lots of reasons - not least it would be treated as an invasio of privacy - but the way the information was obtained is very old school:

https://lawcarenigeria.com/kaye-v-robertson-anor-1990-ewca-civ-21-16-march-1990/

On 25th January 1990 Mr. Kaye was driving his car on a road in London during a gale, when a piece of wood became detached from an advertisement hoarding, smashed through the windscreen of the plaintiff’s car and struck him on the head. The plaintiff suffered severe injuries to his head and brain. He was taken to Charing Cross Hospital where he was on a life support machine for three days. He was then in intensive care, until on 2nd February he was moved into a private room, forming part of Ward G at the hospital.

...

Until 13th February 1990 Mr. Kaye had not been interviewed since his accident by any representative of a newspaper or television programme. On that day, acting on Mr. Robertson’s instructions, a journalist and a photographer from Sunday Sport went to Charing Cross Hospital and gained access to the corridor outside Ward G. They were not seen nor intercepted by any of the hospital staff. Ignoring the notices on the door to the ward and on the plaintiff’s door, they entered the plaintiff’s room. Mr. Kaye apparently agreed to talk to them and according to a transcript that we have heard of a taped record they made of what transpired, did not object to their photographing various cards and flowers in his room. In fact a number of photographs, both in colour and monochrome, were taken of the plaintiff himself showing the substantial scars to his head amongst other matters. The taking of the photographs involved the use of a flashlight.

After some time members of the nursing staff of the hospital learned what was happening. They attempted to persuade the journalist and the photographer to leave, but without success. Security staff were called, and the representatives of Sunday Sport were ejected.

Medical evidence exhibited by Mr. Froggatt to his affidavit in this action says that Mr. Kaye was in no fit condition to be interviewed or to give any informed consent to be interviewed. The accuracy of this opinion is confirmed by the fact that approximately a quarter-of-an-hour after the representatives of Sunday Sport had left his room, Mr. Kaye had no recollection of the incident.

Truthfully, that's shocking. We wouldn't read such things now, I think. Or, if we did, there would be an enormous furore over it after the event.

A contemporary comparison would be Jeremy Renner's snowmobile accident. Details of the emergency services being called emerged more or less contemporaneously, presumably without his consent given how incapacitated he was. But subsequent details were released only by him or his family/paid PR or agent. And, now he himself is releasing information regularly re his rehabilitation. He is in control of the dissemination of information about what happened to him (don't know whether or not for money/personal advancement in his case; I'm sure plenty of actors have accidents that we don't hear about, so I'm inclined to think yes. Why else would you make these things public?).

By taking control of the story, not only is he taking back control of the release of private information, but he's also turning it to his advantage in a way old-school victims of privacy intrusion didn't.

I guess there are some people who don't succumb to the temptation to take advantage of the situation: I can't see the likes of Hugh Grant doing a Jeremy Renner if the same were to happen to him. If the Divine Brown story were to break today, would we see Hugh Grant making his story of repentance and remorse a thing he could monetize or play to his advantage? His actions to date would suggest he has no interest in that. But there are people who will take advantage of the tiniest things (going on holiday) or other serious things (court appearances for crimes or misdemeanors) for money and exposure. Unfortunately, I think Harry falls into the second category eg the near catastrophic 2-hour car chase through the streets of Manhattan.

WigsNGowns · 08/06/2023 17:52

@SunnyEgg @PicturesOfDogs

Info here re: Nikki Sanderson admissions
https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/prince-harry-mirror-hacking-trial-week-one/

The publisher says Sanderson’s claim has been brought too late, but “unreservedly apologises” over four payments made to private investigators which it admits are evidence of instructions to unlawfully obtain her private information. It also claims that evidence does not suggest Sanderson’s phone was successfully hacked.

In any case where a party has made an admission of liability, it is usual for there also to be what is called a Part 36 offer to settle the case. That is a 'secret' (in the sense of not known to the Judge or publically) offer to settle at a particular level. The fact and detail of the offer only becomes known to the Judge after judgment and when the parties argue about costs.

If the Claimant doesn't accept the offer, then goes to court and the judge awards less than the offer, the Claimant is treated as having 'lost' (because they incurred time and costs of a trial to no end - they could have accepted the offer and would have been better off). The result of a loss is the Claimant then has to pay the Defendants costs.

Obviously, I don't know whether offers have been made in any of these cases, nor whether what is admitted is the same as an admission of liability - for example it is possible to admit something and apologise for it where whatever is admitted isn't itself a cause of action or there are other defences - for example limitation has expired.

However, in any case where there is admission that amounts to an admission of liability I would be amazed if there wasn't a Part 36 offer to settle the case - because it is a very standard way for defendants to try to protect themselves. If they aren't accepted, it is always because the Claimant thinks they will win and get more at trial.

Prince Harry vs Mirror hacking trial week one: Publisher apology and Piers Morgan denial

Prince Harry's hacking trial against the publisher of the Mirror began on Wednesday with an apology to him.

https://pressgazette.co.uk/media_law/prince-harry-mirror-hacking-trial-week-one

polkadotdalmation · 08/06/2023 18:29

I did wonder if a part 36 offer had been made to Harry. It seems a very sensible action by the defendants. Presumably if they are actually innocent, they know the offer will protect them just in case the judge looks at the similar fact evidence.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 08/06/2023 19:23

Elior · 08/06/2023 16:37

👏This has been a model thread with posters behaving in an exemplary manner (give or take the odd disruptor trying to break in). A true blueprint for modelling future threads on the royals board. Long may it continue. 😍

Rarely were truer words said; it's been so good to have one almost completely free from unpleasantness, and long may it continue

polkadotdalmation · 08/06/2023 20:20

Puzzledandpissedoff · 08/06/2023 19:23

Rarely were truer words said; it's been so good to have one almost completely free from unpleasantness, and long may it continue

hear hear!!!

TrashyPanda · 08/06/2023 20:21

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this thread and the great conversations we e been able to have, along with knowledge imparted and a good laugh too!

what MN is all about, I think.

OP posts:
MayQueeen · 08/06/2023 20:22

Double hear hear!

TrashyPanda · 08/06/2023 20:27

Re celebrities and intrusion - after WWII ended, mum and dad went out for an evening dinner at the NB which is in the very centre of Edinburgh. Dad was in full army uniform and mum was in an evening dress (borrowed!) there was still rationing on and I think it was their first proper date.

during the evening, there was a little bit of a buzz, people turned their heads to the door and there were whispered conversations.

it was Vivien Leigh and Laurence Olivier, possibly the most glamorous couple of the time. Not a single person went up to them, or asked for an autograph. They took a quick look - and then left them alone to enjoy their evening. My folks never forgot their “almost” encounter with them!

no way would that happen today - it would be all over social media in seconds.

OP posts:
mixedrecycling · 08/06/2023 20:28

I wonder if a part 36 offer has been made to all of them? Let's face it, they (MGN) have already paid out huge amounts in compensation to other victims. They must have a budget for it. The trial will be incredibly expensive, as well as damaging their reputation (such as it is), and potentially creating momentum for further regulation.

OTOH, those wanting further regulation rather than the money would go to trial.

I get the feeling it is public opinion that's the ultimate end game (on both sides).

Nothing wrong with that, that's how change comes about. But if that is what is at stake then 'success/failure' has a slightly different definition than if it is about what the judge decides.

mixedrecycling · 08/06/2023 20:29

TrashyPanda · 08/06/2023 20:27

Re celebrities and intrusion - after WWII ended, mum and dad went out for an evening dinner at the NB which is in the very centre of Edinburgh. Dad was in full army uniform and mum was in an evening dress (borrowed!) there was still rationing on and I think it was their first proper date.

during the evening, there was a little bit of a buzz, people turned their heads to the door and there were whispered conversations.

it was Vivien Leigh and Laurence Olivier, possibly the most glamorous couple of the time. Not a single person went up to them, or asked for an autograph. They took a quick look - and then left them alone to enjoy their evening. My folks never forgot their “almost” encounter with them!

no way would that happen today - it would be all over social media in seconds.

What a lovely story!

Dad's stories were rather less glamorous, usually him being cack-handed and only just getting away with it!

MayQueeen · 08/06/2023 20:30

@TrashyPanda ah such a cute story!

mixedrecycling · 08/06/2023 20:33

You've reminded me I have Dad's diary from 1946/47, which Mum found when he died 3 years ago. She gave it to me because I am the only one interested in history. He basically had a round the world cruise in the Navy waiting to be demobbed, and kept a diary. I find it very interesting, but his handwriting is horrendous (left handed, forced to write with his right hand) so it is difficult to make out and I put it aside until I had more time.

Which I do now!

TrashyPanda · 08/06/2023 21:09

good luck with the diary - sounds fascinating.

my job used to involve a lot of time reading old deed - discoloured paper, faded ink and difficult handwriting. I found it helpful to use a ruler and go down one line at a time, so your eye doesn’t jump. Hope that helps

my dad was also a left handed, made to use his right hand. And then he went to school in Germany for a while and was made to write in Gothic Script. You can imagine the results.

OP posts:
EpicChaos · 08/06/2023 21:11

Does it not occur to the hypocritical, waste of space, to ask himself why people don't like him anymore?
Does it not cross his tiny, empty head, that it was the same media he is suing now, that sold the public a pup, ( him being the pup ) spreading the message of what a great guy he is - full of fun, happy as Larry, a bit of a Jack the lad, etc.
Perhaps it's us that should be suing, for false advertising, or something, anything, i feel we definitely ought to be compensated for being sold such an outrageous lie!
He's a nasty, cruel ( as per his words to and about that poor lady at his school - did it even cross his mind that she/her family might still be alive, did he check, did he not think it would be extremely upsetting for her/her family to have that brought to the publics knowledge! )
If i never saw his face, or heard his goddamn awful voice again, i'd be golden - and that ridiculous look he pulls, well, you'd just never get tired, would you?! That look of insolence! You can well imagine how he truly speaks to people he thinks are below him, when he hasn't got a camera near him.
Thank heavens William came first!
I hope he loses and has to pay a fortune in costs, tbh.

Anyhoo, thanks @WigsNGowns for that info on Gordon Kaye, very sad that he was taken such advantage of when he was in such a very vulnerable state.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 08/06/2023 21:14

Well, don't sit on the fence there, @EpicChaos . Just say what you think about PH. 😆

EpicChaos · 08/06/2023 21:15

@mixedrecycling @TrashyPanda
If you don't mind my asking please, did your dads ever master the art of painting/drawing, at all?
I'm another that was forced to use my right hand instead of my left and never could draw, interesting to know if others managed and if so,how.

EpicChaos · 08/06/2023 21:16

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain lol I'm saving some for later :-D

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