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The royal family

To wonder if the allegations Harry has made against his brother might be true?

576 replies

pearlearringgirl · 05/01/2023 14:20

We put the royal family on a pedestal, however they are a family with potential issues and dysfunction like a lot of families have.

I just find myself wondering if these allegations might have some truth behind them and what that might mean for the future of the royal family.

I also wonder what Dianna would think of this feud between her two boys. I expect she would be very sad…

OP posts:
MamoruHisaishi · 17/06/2023 01:10

Cranberrystreet · 16/06/2023 15:09

Sorry but I think it’s nonsense to call Harry “a violent racist” and I want to challenge that statement which implies that nowadays he goes around assaulting people of a different race to him , instead of falling in love with a woman of mixed race and having mixed race dc.

I am surprised that the comment “He’s a violent racist, that’s a fact” has been allowed to stand tbh because (a) it conjoins two unrelated things and (b) is not the truth NOW.

Yes be behaved in a racist way, idiotically and stupidly, as a young man, there is no question about that. But he has since learnt and grown and fully admitted his behaviour was wrong and now as an older married man has done a complete volte face and is advocating for racial equality and understanding.

Are people not allowed to change and grow? Do they get no credit for doing so? Not on Mumsnet obviously!

Harry was 20 yrs old I believe when he wore that Nazi uniform. And he was in training to be a soldier when the incident about the racist nns occurred. The environments he was in at the time were deeply white, hierarchical, upper class, and yes, I’m afraid to say, racist. I know this because I have family members who attended some of the same training establishments in the services around about the same time.

Attitudes are slowly changing and improving but believe me there is still much more work to be done. And I agree with Harry when he says much unconscious racism remains and establishment folk who believe they are doing their best, really still need to do far more.

Except harry in his own book tried to cast blame on William and Kate for him wearing the nazi costume. How does that show growth and acknowledging/owning his poor behaviour? And yes he was 20 years old at the time when he wore it, legally an adult, not some young naive teen who didn't know better.

And no, that wasn't the only racist incident that harry was involved in.

Harry, as an adult, well after the nazi costume, called someone a paki, called a French bartender a frog, told a black comedian he didn't sound black, and has most recently defended lady hussey when she was accused of racism by a black woman. This is despite William’s spokesperson and Buckingham palace condemning her remarks.

Harry has also been documented to have physically assaulted people by shoving them (in the case of the photographer), and by his own words admitted in his book that he had slapped his bodyguard, and most recently one of the foo fighters shared that he was slapped by Harry after he said he was feeling tired.

Harry has also continued to make disturbing comparisons to killing afghans (even if they were taliban) as like either playing chess or playing a video game.

So I stand by my words. He is a violent racist, and marrying a biracial woman who looks mostly white doesn't change that or absolve him of his own words and behaviour.

MamoruHisaishi · 17/06/2023 01:15

tigger2022 · 16/06/2023 21:09

I have mixed feelings about the whole Nazi uniform saga. On the one hand I'm Jewish and it really upset me at the time because I felt so angry about how Harry's popularity meant it was dismissed as "just banter" and "can't you take a joke". And now it's finally being taken seriously all these years later but not because the Jewish community is suddenly something people want to protect but because he's fallen out of favour for completely unrelated reasons.

I agree. I've never liked harry even before Meghan, because of his well known racism and his anger problems, not to mention his Vegas trip made him seem so sleazy. I was in fact hoping that by marrying Meghan, it was a sign he was actually better than what I thought he was. I wasn't expecting them to turn out the way they did.

MamoruHisaishi · 17/06/2023 01:17

LBFseBrom · 16/06/2023 22:00

That should have died down long ago. It was a fancy dress party, the theme being 'Colonials and natives', would you believe. Harry, William and Kate went to a hire shop and Harry saw the German East Africa Corps uniform (presumably he was a 'colonial'), and chose that, William hired a lion costume - well, lions are native to Africa! Goodness knows what Kate went as. However, it is not at all unusual for people to dress up as Hitler, Ghenghis Khan, Henry the Vlll, Julius Caesar and various other people for such parties. I doubt he gave it a thought, especially as it wasn't anything like the SS. There was even a famous Jewish film director who made a musical with a cast of goose stepping SS and I've seen Julian Clary dressed up as a Nazi on TV. It doesn't mean they are taking on the persona of such characters, merely dressing up for a 'part and the more outrageous the better. It's parody, sad that people were upset by this but I do feel that feeling was whipped up by the media. I mean - nobody really thinks Harry is a Nazi, do they? I also wonder what sort of person takes the photo and gives it to the press; not much of a friend. It was a private birthday party.

Anyway that was many years ago.

Problem is, Harry continued to make racist comments even after the nazi costume incident. It's like he never learned from the experience, and I don't think he's changed much or shown grown either despite some people insisting he has. It's a series of incidents that show harry’s racism.

tigger2022 · 17/06/2023 06:07

Even before all this, Harry has always acted like the problem is the press reporting his behaviour and not his behaviour

Gothambutnotahamster · 17/06/2023 06:51

Very true @tigger2022

Cranberrystreet · 17/06/2023 07:26

MamoruHisaishi · 17/06/2023 01:10

Except harry in his own book tried to cast blame on William and Kate for him wearing the nazi costume. How does that show growth and acknowledging/owning his poor behaviour? And yes he was 20 years old at the time when he wore it, legally an adult, not some young naive teen who didn't know better.

And no, that wasn't the only racist incident that harry was involved in.

Harry, as an adult, well after the nazi costume, called someone a paki, called a French bartender a frog, told a black comedian he didn't sound black, and has most recently defended lady hussey when she was accused of racism by a black woman. This is despite William’s spokesperson and Buckingham palace condemning her remarks.

Harry has also been documented to have physically assaulted people by shoving them (in the case of the photographer), and by his own words admitted in his book that he had slapped his bodyguard, and most recently one of the foo fighters shared that he was slapped by Harry after he said he was feeling tired.

Harry has also continued to make disturbing comparisons to killing afghans (even if they were taliban) as like either playing chess or playing a video game.

So I stand by my words. He is a violent racist, and marrying a biracial woman who looks mostly white doesn't change that or absolve him of his own words and behaviour.

Surely you can see the difference between calling someone “a violent racist” and someone who has been racist and occasionally violent in the past MamoruHisaishi?

And sorry but people who are racist do not tend to marry people who are of mixed race and have mixed race children with them. It’s ridiculous to keep on saying that Harry is racist now.

I’m afraid I can quite believe that he was racist when he was young because he was brought up in the RF and the monarchy is a very traditional, white, and slow to change institution in which until recently , Prince Philip’s outlook and values were pretty much upheld. Harry also went to a public school in which, until very recently anyway, those values were upheld.

I am related by marriage to some people who I suppose you would call minor aristocrats who went to Eton and the stuff they come out with occasionally would have been unacceptable twenty years ago frankly ; it’s more than embarrassing elderly uncle at family wedding- it’s blatant full on anti-woke-and-proud racist rhetoric. I am not saying all aristocrats are racist, I am sure they are not, but some elements of traditional, white, aristocratic society definitely are.

Idontpostmuch · 17/06/2023 11:10

@Cranberrystreet @MamoruHisaishi Quite a lot of interest from your conversation. First, I can't understand why the owner of the hire shop hasn't been criticised. It shouldn't even be legal to have such costumes. Secondly, H didn't accuse W and K of making him take the costume. He implied they decided together. Next, calling the french frogs is along the same lines as Australians calling us poms. Not a nice thing to do but not actually racist. Next, calling his friend a paki is technically racist, but his friend did seem to take it as fun. It was still wrong to say it at all, but the way it's been reported makes it seem much worse. Finally, Meghan doesn't regard herself as mostly white - in Africa she said it was good for them to see a prominent figure who 'looks like them'. In any case H has a close relationship with Doria, who is black. He's not really your run of the mill stereotypical racist. Having said that, I can't understand wny he's so ready to call his family racist, so don't have much sympathy for him. He of all people should understand how easy it is to slip up and be condemned.

TrashyPanda · 17/06/2023 11:21

tigger2022 · 17/06/2023 06:07

Even before all this, Harry has always acted like the problem is the press reporting his behaviour and not his behaviour

You have hit the nail on the head

TrashyPanda · 17/06/2023 11:25

And sorry but people who are racist do not tend to marry people who are of mixed race and have mixed race children with them

some do.

personally know a man who married a woman from another country but was infuriated when his daughter became engaged to a foreign man who was also of a different religion. So much so that he tried to strangle her!

racists come in all shapes and sizes, as does racism.

TrashyPanda · 17/06/2023 11:28

I am not saying all aristocrats are racist, I am sure they are not, but some elements of traditional, white, aristocratic society definitely are

class is irrelevant.

and some working people are racist.
and some middle class people are racist.

racism isn’t a class thing. It’s irrelevant if a racist is posh or not.

Cranberrystreet · 17/06/2023 12:23

TrashyPanda · 17/06/2023 11:28

I am not saying all aristocrats are racist, I am sure they are not, but some elements of traditional, white, aristocratic society definitely are

class is irrelevant.

and some working people are racist.
and some middle class people are racist.

racism isn’t a class thing. It’s irrelevant if a racist is posh or not.

Yes there are racists in all classes. But relevant here is the branch of the aristocracy of which our royal family is part, or is related to, going back to two of the sisters of Prince Philip who married Nazis or became Nazi party members, Edward VIll the abdicator who, we now know, was sympathetic to Hitler, right through to Princess Michael of Kent who had to apologise for wearing a Blackamoor brooch, Prince Philip with his infamous “slitty eyes” comments, Lady Susan Hussey who was the late Queen’s friend and lady-in-waiting for 60 years etc, You can’t really argue that the tradition isn’t there I’m afraid.

And if you are going to keep bringing up Harry’s past I’m afraid you can’t erase the evidence of past racism in the RF listed above!

I’ve no doubt KC and PW are currently addressing these issues, but I was pointing out that the monarchy is not exactly an institution that is known for fast-paced change. So whereas ordinary families nowadays are quick to challenge elderly relations who may, intentionally or unintentionally, make an insulting or racist remark, it may take longer in the royal family, and in the wider institution, for that change to filter through.

TrashyPanda · 17/06/2023 12:39

Being related to a racist does not make one a racist. We cannot help who we are related to.

Philips sisters choices do not reflect upon him. They were much older than him and he was a young boy when they married.

Just because Harry had been racist in the past - nobody suggests that means William is a racist.

BadgerB · 17/06/2023 12:53

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Cranberrystreet · 17/06/2023 13:01

TrashyPanda · 17/06/2023 12:39

Being related to a racist does not make one a racist. We cannot help who we are related to.

Philips sisters choices do not reflect upon him. They were much older than him and he was a young boy when they married.

Just because Harry had been racist in the past - nobody suggests that means William is a racist.

No but my point is, that if as a child, you are born in to a family where people are making racist comments for example, or where racist jokes or jewellery are not challenged, it explains why you may hold those same values as a younger man and then change them once you go out in to the world and have different influences.

No where have I suggested Prince William is racist.

SoTedious · 17/06/2023 23:31

Yes be behaved in a racist way, idiotically and stupidly, as a young man, there is no question about that. But he has since learnt and grown and fully admitted his behaviour was wrong and now as an older married man has done a complete volte face and is advocating for racial equality and understanding.

As I pointed out on another thread, more recently Harry has publicly downplayed his own wife's description of racism within the royal family, calling it unconscious bias. And he also defended Lady Hussey after her racist remark.

MamoruHisaishi · 18/06/2023 00:24

Cranberrystreet · 17/06/2023 07:26

Surely you can see the difference between calling someone “a violent racist” and someone who has been racist and occasionally violent in the past MamoruHisaishi?

And sorry but people who are racist do not tend to marry people who are of mixed race and have mixed race children with them. It’s ridiculous to keep on saying that Harry is racist now.

I’m afraid I can quite believe that he was racist when he was young because he was brought up in the RF and the monarchy is a very traditional, white, and slow to change institution in which until recently , Prince Philip’s outlook and values were pretty much upheld. Harry also went to a public school in which, until very recently anyway, those values were upheld.

I am related by marriage to some people who I suppose you would call minor aristocrats who went to Eton and the stuff they come out with occasionally would have been unacceptable twenty years ago frankly ; it’s more than embarrassing elderly uncle at family wedding- it’s blatant full on anti-woke-and-proud racist rhetoric. I am not saying all aristocrats are racist, I am sure they are not, but some elements of traditional, white, aristocratic society definitely are.

Surely you can see the difference between calling someone “a violent racist” and someone who has been racist and occasionally violent in the past.

Would you differentiate calling someone a domestic abuser versus an occasional domestic abuser if they only ‘occasionally’ engaged in abusing their partner?

And sorry but people who are racist do not tend to marry people who are of mixed race and have mixed race children with them. It’s ridiculous to keep on saying that Harry is racist now.

You're kidding right? As a person of colour, I have known plenty of white men who have married women of colour and even had kids with them, who I would consider racists. They think their wife is somehow better/different, so have no problem denigrating other people of colour. Some of those mixed race kids end up hating their non white background because of it. Please read up more on this topic instead of spouting such ignorance.

I’m afraid I can quite believe that he was racist when he was young because he was brought up in the RF and the monarchy is a very traditional, white, and slow to change institution in which until recently , Prince Philip’s outlook and values were pretty much upheld. Harry also went to a public school in which, until very recently anyway, those values were upheld

Yet Ive not heard William call anyone racist slurs, despite having the same upbringing.

I am related by marriage to some people who I suppose you would call minor aristocrats who went to Eton and the stuff they come out with occasionally would have been unacceptable twenty years ago frankly ; it’s more than embarrassing elderly uncle at family wedding- it’s blatant full on anti-woke-and-proud racist rhetoric. I am not saying all aristocrats are racist, I am sure they are not, but some elements of traditional, white, aristocratic society definitely are.

Not sure how this is relevant when harry continued to make racist comments after his nazi costume controversy, which shows he clearly never learned from his mistake. His most recent gaffe was siding with lady hussey over her racist remarks, despite his own brother’s spokesperson condemning it. if he's supposedly now enlightened, and learned from his racist past, why would harry minimize a black woman’s experience of racism?

MamoruHisaishi · 18/06/2023 00:53

Idontpostmuch · 17/06/2023 11:10

@Cranberrystreet @MamoruHisaishi Quite a lot of interest from your conversation. First, I can't understand why the owner of the hire shop hasn't been criticised. It shouldn't even be legal to have such costumes. Secondly, H didn't accuse W and K of making him take the costume. He implied they decided together. Next, calling the french frogs is along the same lines as Australians calling us poms. Not a nice thing to do but not actually racist. Next, calling his friend a paki is technically racist, but his friend did seem to take it as fun. It was still wrong to say it at all, but the way it's been reported makes it seem much worse. Finally, Meghan doesn't regard herself as mostly white - in Africa she said it was good for them to see a prominent figure who 'looks like them'. In any case H has a close relationship with Doria, who is black. He's not really your run of the mill stereotypical racist. Having said that, I can't understand wny he's so ready to call his family racist, so don't have much sympathy for him. He of all people should understand how easy it is to slip up and be condemned.

Secondly, H didn't accuse W and K of making him take the costume. He implied they decided together

They didn't decide together. He asked their opinion and they gave it, and he was foolish enough to actually wear it. That's on him, no one else. But him bringing up William and Kate in relation to that costume shows that he's trying to indirectly blame them for making him wear it.

Next, calling the french frogs is along the same lines as Australians calling us poms. Not a nice thing to do but not actually racist. Next, calling his friend a paki is technically racist, but his friend did seem to take it as fun

Sure, calling a French person a frog may not be considered racist as per the definition of the word, but it is considered an ethnic slur, which with Harry’s controversy of wearing a nazi costume is definitely not a good look. Also just coz harry’s friend may have taken it as ‘fun’ doesn't minimise harry’s racism. Of course his friend would take it as all good ‘fun’, Harry was the one with the power in that relationship by virtue of being a well protected prince. I guess harry calling another person a ‘raghead’ was okay too because the person he called a ‘raghead’ also took it in good ‘fun’.

Finally, Meghan doesn't regard herself as mostly white - in Africa she said it was good for them to see a prominent figure who 'looks like them'.

Omg you don't even see just how self serving and arrogant she came across when she said that. It doesn't matter what Meghan regards herself as, most of her friends are white (some of who are trump supporters and have been involved in racist controversies themselves), and she's only ever dated and married white men. She and her husband chose to name their daughter after two white women who weren't involved in their daughter’s life, instead of her own black mother. Plus she never invited anyone in her mother’s side of the family at the wedding despite them never having said a word against either harry or Meghan.

Also, there is such a thing as colorism, where people of colour who have lighter skin are sought after and worshipped more than those with darker skin. Meghan saying that to people who actually don't look like her, because they have darker skin and more ethnic features, just shows how lacking of self awareness she is and how highly she thinks of herself as a ‘saviour’. This is like her Nelson Mandela comment all over again.

In any case H has a close relationship with Doria, who is black. He's not really your run of the mill stereotypical racist.

Lol omg, yeah sure harry isn't your typical racist because he has ‘black’ friends.

Having said that, I can't understand wny he's so ready to call his family racist, so don't have much sympathy for him. He of all people should understand how easy it is to slip up and be condemned.

He called his family racist and then walked back on that claim. He called them racists because he and Meghan were angry that they didn't get their half in half out that they wanted. There was no slip up. He hasn't even named the racist. This was a deliberate smear on his entire family as revenge for not giving him and Meghan what they wanted.

TrashyPanda · 18/06/2023 07:26

Surely Harry knew his own mother was very friendly with Imran and Jemima Khan and visited them in Pakistan to help them fundraise?

Diana also had a lengthy relationship with Hasnat Khan and invited his family to KP.

what went through Harry’s mind when he decided to use that racial slur?
how could anyone get to the age of 20 without realising that racial slurs are repugnant and nobody is going to think you are a “big man”, quite the reverse?

why didn’t he even bother to issue a personal apology instead of leaving it to a spokesperson? That would have shown genuine contrition.

Cranberrystreet · 18/06/2023 07:40

SoTedious · 17/06/2023 23:31

Yes be behaved in a racist way, idiotically and stupidly, as a young man, there is no question about that. But he has since learnt and grown and fully admitted his behaviour was wrong and now as an older married man has done a complete volte face and is advocating for racial equality and understanding.

As I pointed out on another thread, more recently Harry has publicly downplayed his own wife's description of racism within the royal family, calling it unconscious bias. And he also defended Lady Hussey after her racist remark.

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your point. It would have been hypocritical of Harry not to defend her when he had been racist in the past wouldn’t it?

They both know better now hopefully.

And I am sure unconscious bias exists within the institution of the monarchy. It does among all of us who are white and of a certain age.

Cranberrystreet · 18/06/2023 07:48

Would you differentiate calling someone a domestic abuser versus an occasional domestic abuser if they only ‘occasionally’ engaged in abusing their partner?

There you go conflating two entirely separate things MamoruHisaishi I stand by my point that it’s massively hyperbolic to call Harry “a violent racist” which implies he goes around beating up people of a different race to him.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/06/2023 07:56

His most recent gaffe was siding with lady hussey over her racist remarks, despite his own brother’s spokesperson condemning it. if he's supposedly now enlightened, and learned from his racist past, why would harry minimize a black woman’s experience of racism?

Like the swap to "unconscious bias", this is another of the reasons why I wonder if the palace have pressured Harry to rescind some of his wilder claims - after all it's one thing accusing "the little people" and quite another when it involves someone close to them

They did say it would be dealt with privately and it's entirely possible they asked who queried what colour Archie would be, so perhaps Harry couldn't produce a coherent answer?

After all it wouldn't be the first time ...

SoTedious · 18/06/2023 08:14

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your point. It would have been hypocritical of Harry not to defend her when he had been racist in the past wouldn’t it?

I was addressing a PP's remark about Harry being racist in the past but he's grown and it's all behind him and he's changed. But it was just a few months ago when he was sticking up for Lady Hussey and minimising his wife's experience of racism on tv. (What she described in the Oprah interview was clearly racism.)

I don't think it's hypocritical to change your stance on something like racism and call it out. I'm saying that he doesn't actually do that when it matters. Two women of colour given racist treatment by his family, both minimised by Harry.

At least William's statement about Lady Hussey's comments was unequivocal (and she's his godmother I think).

SoTedious · 18/06/2023 08:20

Next, calling his friend a paki is technically racist, but his friend did seem to take it as fun

"Technically racist, but..."
😔

MrsFinkelstein · 18/06/2023 09:43

SoTedious · 18/06/2023 08:20

Next, calling his friend a paki is technically racist, but his friend did seem to take it as fun

"Technically racist, but..."
😔

Because I'm sure his "friend" felt he had lots of options to complain about The Queen's Grandson making racist jokes about him. 🙄

Harry had all the power in that situation. And his "friend" would have been very aware of it.

SoTedious · 18/06/2023 10:19

I cannot bear people excusing racism on the basis that it was fun for all concerned and the victim seemed to enjoy it.

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