Camilla not the Royal Harry said made racist comments

[antelopevalley]

After the revelation that Camilla allegedly said it would be funny if Harry and Meghan's baby had a "ginger afro", one "highly placed source told Page Six: “Camilla is not racist — I can tell you categorically she is not the royal who Harry and Meghan were talking about.”"

pagesix.com/2022/07/22/camilla-parker-bowles-is-not-the-racist-royal-insiders-say/

If true this is worse. It would mean that Camilla says racist jokes, but that another member of the Royal Family had said more damning racist remarks.

[pantherrose]

@antelopevalley

@pantherrose It does not matter what your ancestors thought. You said young people do not understand what racism actually is. So I am asking you, what is racism then?

Actually, it matters very much what my Jewish ancestors thought and indeed, what Jewish people think and experience today. You appear to be selectively racist yourself and I find your comments naive at best. I would prefer not to engage with you further.

[IrisVersicolor]

@pantherrose

Sorry, crappy old phone playing up. The fate of my Jewish ancestors defined racism - the belief that race is a determinant of human traits and capacities and that those inherited attributes define the superiority of one race over another.
Racism has been the cause of not just the Holocaust, but genocides in Armenia and Serbia. I believe that by crying racism over the kind of comment attributed ( without proof) to Camilla is actually perpetuating division by getting tied in knots over semantics rather than fostering mutual respect, equal opportunities and cultural appreciation.
For the record, I do not believe that the Royal Family are inherently racist, I do believe that Harry was the exception and has now jumped on the bandwagon since meeting his wife, who seems to identify as black when it suits her and white when it doesn't. Michelle Obama is one sharp cookie who seems to have the measure of her.

Ok…

[georgarina]

@FriedasCarLoad

I'm white, with lots of ginger ancestors. My ex was mixed race with mostly African ancestry, with one white, ginger grandparent and three very dark skinned grandparents.

We used to giggle over how cute our (imaginary) children would be if they had brown skin and freckles and a big ginger afro.

I was really surprised to read in the press that this would be considered a racist comment. To a stranger, sure. But when discussing the possible appearance of a new close relative, with other close family? I still don't understand the problem.

Happy to read if someone explains it.

Literally same. I'm from a mixed family and this is the kind of thing people talk and joke about, not in a racist way, the same as any family wonders how kids will look. There is nothing shocking or offensive about it at all to me.

[antelopevalley]

@pantherrose

Actually, it matters very much what my Jewish ancestors thought and indeed, what Jewish people think and experience today. You appear to be selectively racist yourself and I find your comments naive at best. I would prefer not to engage with you further.

I am racist for saying I want your views of what racism is since you said lots of young people do not understand what racism is?

[antelopevalley]

@IrisVersicolor That was my reaction. So much to unpick there. Where to start?

[buzzy06]

Literally same. I'm from a mixed family and this is the kind of thing people talk and joke about, not in a racist way, the same as any family wonders how kids will look. There is nothing shocking or offensive about it at all to me.

I'm mixed race and if some distant relative thought it was funny to imagine my child with a ginger Afro, I'd take that as offensive. It's not cute speculation you'd have with your own mother. It was also behind the mothers back. You'd seriously be ok with this?

Archie was never going to have an Afro at all, it's massively weird to bring that up and definitely not genuine speculation. More mocking.

[Paslaptis]

Speaking strictly about the alleged "ginger afro" conversation, here's what Bower said in Revenge (p 626 of the epub edition): In one version, Camilla remarked, ‘Wouldn’t it be funny if your child had ginger Afro hair?’ Harry laughed. Subsequently, Meghan’s reaction to that conversation turned Harry’s amusement into fury. (The source for this is “Finding Freedom p.124/5”).

There's a tendency throughout the book for Bower to use quotes around statements that he has not footnoted (for example, there are numerous unsourced direct quotes from Meghan that are couched in British English which most Americans would consider grammatically incorrect). Since this quote ‘Wouldn’t it be funny if your child had ginger Afro hair?’ is sourced, I'd encourage people to go to the source here; I don't have access to it.

However: if the claim is that Camilla's comment is racist in context, why did Harry laugh at it? He later realised, in conversation with Meghan, why it was racist - but did Camilla also hear those reasons, and the hurt it caused, and double down and stand behind the comment? Believe me, I have every sympathy with Meghan not wanting to have to de facto do the work of telling white people about racism - but once she had told Harry, why could HE not have told Camilla or whoever? Perhaps he did and I'm missing it, but so did Bower.

I do agree that overall the Bower book comes across as racist (and xenophobic). He seems to be desperate to prove that Meghan was exaggerating the impact of anti-black racism in the USA, because he was able to find sources that said that racism was not a significant factor in certain specific situations. Meghan recounts a specific racist incident at school, but a teacher at the school that Bower corresponded with decades later said she didn't feel there was racism, so Meghan's integrity should be questioned. A producer who hired Meghan said he didn't know she was mixed race, so that negates her perceptions that she struggled as a mixed-race actress in Hollywood. Thomas Merkel said Meghan never confided in him about feeling marginalised as a black or mixed-raced person at Northwestern, so she can't have experienced racism there. And on and on and on (I'm only at the part where Meghan and Harry are engaged - and no, I did not buy the book!)

The fact is, Meghan had and has every right and reason to come to a realisation over time about how much anti-black racism - including prejudice against mixed marriages, etc. - impacted her at various stages of her life, and to decide when to speak out about it knowing that the backlash would come. And as Bower gets race in the USA so spectacularly wrong, it becomes hard to take his word for anything.

[Bollindger]

www.thesun.co.uk/news/14261965/meghan-markle-blood-money-diamond-earrings-saudi/

Think the saying about glasshouse and stones apply here.

[IrisVersicolor]

I can’t take Bower seriously as a source for anything other than cash for hatchet jobs.

But to take the claim at face value - I’ve laughed politely and bitten my lip where there was zero point in taking the person to task over comments. Equally he may have laughed along at something he decided afterwards was unacceptable. He’s had a lifetime of ginger finger-pointing, so he’s used to that part of the equation.

[VaccineSticker]

Echoing what the rest of the mixed families have said on here too.
As a mixed race family here too, we used to discuss the same thing before our children were born. There’s nothing racist about.

[Quia]

@antelopevalley

@FriedasCarLoad you and your then partner were talking about how cute your kids would be. Camilla was making a joke about how hilarious it would be, not about being cute, but laughing at how it would look. It is very different.

But maybe she was saying it would be hilarious because of the way it would upset racists?

[Roussette]

@Bollindger

www.thesun.co.uk/news/14261965/meghan-markle-blood-money-diamond-earrings-saudi/

Think the saying about glasshouse and stones apply here.

The Sun.

Rightio...

Maybe have a read of this.
here

[friendlycat]

I can't take this book seriously at all and haven't bothered reading any of the extracts from it.

But it is factually correct that Harry has been racist himself in younger years.
I've always thought it best that "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

[Holly60]

@antelopevalley

I will ignore your classic middle-class insults.

Ignoring anything that doesn't fit with your world view? Who'd have thought 🤷‍♀️

[Holly60]

@antelopevalley

It is an offensive term and a racial slur. So obviously not acceptable.
But the Cambridges chose it for their living room.

It was written by the artist. Get annoyed with them? Oh no wait...

[Holly60]

@antelopevalley

@FriedasCarLoad you and your then partner were talking about how cute your kids would be. Camilla was making a joke about how hilarious it would be, not about being cute, but laughing at how it would look. It is very different.

Were you there?

[IrisVersicolor]

@friendlycat

I can't take this book seriously at all and haven't bothered reading any of the extracts from it.

But it is factually correct that Harry has been racist himself in younger years.
I've always thought it best that "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

And people can’t wake up and change their perspective?

It would hardly be surprising if he had originally absorbed the attitudes of the royal family.

A Highgrove secretary went to tribunal over constructive dismissal when she left following racial abuse by staff. PC’s right hand man Michael Fawcett was accused of calling her the n word. He is alleged to have told her: “What the hell would you know, you're just a fucking *** typist.

She commented:

In the Prince of Wales's household there is still very much the old school and they have not really taken to black people.

"I never felt part of the team. There were always black jokes and names going round. Because it is the Royal Family it is still very protected. It has its own rules and regulations.

She lost her case. This was 20 years ago. I wonder how the case would have played out now.

[Holly60]

@antelopevalley

@toomuchlaundry You do know we all only "know" what we see in the media? All those people declaring Camilla would be great fun to have a drink with have no idea if that is true either. She may be great fun, or she may be bad-tempered and complain constantly. We all only know what the media tell us. And if we ignore everything the media tell us then this Royal Family section would not exist.

But saying someone looks like fun isn't damaging, whereas what you are asserting is.

Saying someone you work with looks like a great laugh based on limited information would be fine, accusing them of being racist based on limited info obviously wouldn't be.

So maybe don't make accusations unless you know the whole story. Seems low key obvious.

[Holly60]

@antelopevalley

@Serenster Nice of you to say what the Obamas would and would not be bothered about.
The Obamas are intelligent people, I am sure they understand exactly where the Cambridges are coming from.

Yes I'm sure they do.

[IrisVersicolor]

@Holly60

Yes I'm sure they do.

If by that you mean a world apart from the multiculture many of us live in, that leads to international faux pas such as cloth-eared colonial tours and greeting kids behind chain link fencing, then I would agree.

[Choopi]

I've just seen the 'racist painting' when someone linked to it there. It has a kid, some men, some horses, a gun, a dog and big buildings. Is that not what the royal family are into? Is it not possible they just went oh look a painting with all of these thing that we like, it fits the colour scheme of the room, nice one, we'll pick this? Or do they royal family have to pick pictures differently to us plebs? They must have so many rooms that picking paintings for them all must be a bloody chore? Or am I looking at this from too much of a normal person's point of view? Most of my house is blank walls because I can't be arsed picking out artwork to put up.

[Readinginthesun]

I have a wry smile when I see people trying to brush off Harry’s documented and confirmed racist as him being young . If I remember, he was early 20s so hardly a child .
In other threads , posters are told that their 18th are old DC are adults.
Had William said these shocking things would everyone be so forgiving ? Doubt it .

[unname]

@Choopi

I've just seen the 'racist painting' when someone linked to it there. It has a kid, some men, some horses, a gun, a dog and big buildings. Is that not what the royal family are into? Is it not possible they just went oh look a painting with all of these thing that we like, it fits the colour scheme of the room, nice one, we'll pick this? Or do they royal family have to pick pictures differently to us plebs? They must have so many rooms that picking paintings for them all must be a bloody chore? Or am I looking at this from too much of a normal person's point of view? Most of my house is blank walls because I can't be arsed picking out artwork to put up.

I think it's neat because the young man in question is the focus and the figures who are usually the subject of paintings are just there. Someone who is normally the afterthought in any historical paintings (IMO) is in the light. It makes me think about the life of someone in his shoes.

I don't think it should be hidden away. They can retitle it using the current day translation of the Dutch title instead of the archaic one that has since been recognized as offensive.

[unname]

@IrisVersicolor

If by that you mean a world apart from the multiculture many of us live in, that leads to international faux pas such as cloth-eared colonial tours and greeting kids behind chain link fencing, then I would agree.

It was a football field and the kids were outside it? Not fenced in a prison or something?

[ohfook]

@antelopevalley

So in summary:
I don't see racism?
More important battles to fight on racism (so ignore this example)
And a load of insults that boil down to why are you wasting your time posting on Mumsnet.

Literally nobody is saying that. What people are saying is that so much of this has been played out via 'sources' in the media. We have no real idea of what was said and who said it. We can't make a judgement on a rumour.