Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet

[Snog]

Do you think Prince Charles will bestow titles on Harry's children when he becomes king?

On the few times we have seen of Harry's interactions with family, he seems to distinguish between granny and the queen. One at work and formal, other times talking informally to a boss at work. The meeting with MM was a social one, so I can see why it would not cross his mind to remind her that she has to curtsy as they were not in an engagement capacity etc. He probably (they probably all do it without thinking they have done it so long). Maybe their exes have done it too, but was there a formal thing shown or in writing about how you introduce a partner? I would think he would tell her if this was a strict formal rule that was given to everyone in some manual or something. I really cannot be bothered about this, and frankly it's so petty, I doubt HMQE would be fussed, probably amused if anything.

As for how kids are treated, I think she meant on a human level, not work, protocol or other formalities in regards to the line etc. Certainly not discussions to go out of your way to change long standing rules about some kids because you don't like the colour of their skin. What was that all about anyway !

Certainly not discussions to go out of your way to change long standing rules about some kids because you don't like the colour of their skin

Old news, but Meghan didn’t say that the conversations about changing the Letters Patent were because if the colour of their children’s skin. Rather, she invited Oprah to infer that that must have been the reason.

Is that not what Oprah asks her if it's fair to assume it's because of the colour, is that what she means. Then she says yes, that is the insinuation she is getting from the decision, it's about the colour/race.

Also, not sure what Harry would look at his cousins, him and William are the only children of PC. So in that case, they could also look at PC and PA, and both have children styled as Princes and princesses (I discount Anne as the second born, due to previous issues in place because of her gender).

Exactly.

He either didn’t bother. Or he didn’t think.

Either way the person who should have made sure she knew everything she needed to know, be that by him explaining or having people around that could explain, was him. And he didn’t.

But the rules were changed again to make Louis a Prince too - basically because you would then have had the situation of one sibling of lower rank, when they will all become children of the sovereign. That will never be the case for Harry’s children.

There hasn’t been any rule change for Harry’s children; there IS no slimming down in that sense. They’ve had exactly the treatment the 1917 Letters Patent demands. Nothing has been changed for them. The one and only person who has even suggested it would be changed in the future is Meghan. Not the Queen, not Charles - not even Harry. Just her.

The one and only person who has even suggested it would be changed in the future is Meghan. Not the Queen, not Charles - not even Harry. Just her.

My personal theory @WomanStanleyWoman2 is that there had been past discussions within the family (likely kicked off by Charles, who does seem to be the senior royal who is advocating for the slimmed down model) that there should be fewer Princes and Princesses. And as a result of this Edward and Sophie agreed to the way their children have been styled - entitled to the title, but choosing not to use it. Charles can’t retrospectively change the titles of Beatrice and Eugenie, but he can secure the agreement of his youngest brother to his vision.

Skip forward 18 years or so and the same discussions are had with Meghan and Harry, but for whatever reason they are unhappy with the plan and decide to characterise it differently.

Harry's and Meghan' s children are so far off the list of succession that they should just not worry about it and get on with their lives. But I do find their having on hang on the RF a bit irritating . Whatever titles their children have - who cares. It's a bit Duke & Duchess of Windsor or Sarah Ferguson. No body really cares ( do they ? )

But the rules were changed again to make Louis a Prince too

They weren’t changed again for Louis.

The change that was made before any child was born covered all future children of William. Be that one, three or twenty.

Weren't the Letters Patent about the royal style for the Cambridge DC issued before any of them were born?

So all decided, for the family in the direct succession, long before the Duke of Sussex even met his future wife.

Huh ?

Meghan does not make any rules, the queen (and PC to some extent) do. She never said the rules have been changed, she said these were the discussions of what lay in store for Archie. The rules will be changed (in the future) specifically for Archie !

They said that is what PC said he would do.

You are disputing that, were you there? How do you know that PC will not do this, he never even denied such discussions took place either, neither did the palace or 'sources' for that matter. Absolutely no one denied this conversation was broached.

And as a result of this Edward and Sophie agreed to the way their children have been styled - entitled to the title, but choosing not to use it.

Not sure if that was down to Charles or not, but that decision was made at a time when (quite ironically given the family’s reliance on her now) Sophie wasn’t intending to be a full time working royal.

She had her PR company and was intending to stay with that until the Fake Sheik scandal.

It was never expected that Harry and his wife (given the slimming decisions would be made long before it was known who he’d marry) wouldn’t be working royals. not with Charles only having two sons.

No, I think it very likely that there were conversations with Prince Charles, who said to Harry and Meghan that this is how he wants Prince/Princess titles to be used, and when he is King he intends to change the Letters Patent to formalise it (he can’t do it before then, obviously)

There’s no problem at all with this approach if the parents whose children it will impact want to co-operate with his plans. It appears that Edward and Sophie did, while Harry and Meghan clearly didn’t.

That was a response to @WomanStanleyWoman2 in my previous post.

As for the people who keep saying they are hanging on, it's not hanging on, it's family. If your name is Sarah Smith, your last name is Smith you come from that family. The tradition of that family is that the children are given the last name of their fathe/mother of Smith and they have a right to it, it's not hanging on.

As someone said, Anne was given the respect of being consulted, and she refused. Maybe the tradition of the Philips family is that the children get the last name of the males of the family. Why not give Harry and Meghan the same curtesy. They are part of the family no matter what. What are they supposed to do, come up with some random name. For Christ sake we watch shows were people track down their ancestors via their last names, and people have a problem with A&L keeping their family traditions, titles etc. I don't think so.

She had her PR company and was intending to stay with that until the Fake Sheik scandal.

The Fake Sheikh sting was in April 2001, and it was in 2002 that the Wessexes announced they were giving up on their private activities. Lady Louise was born in November 2003 - so by the time her oldest child was born they were working royals.

The rules were changed before George was born as it was unknown if he would be a boy (George) or girl (Charlotte) first.
At that point the rules were changed for all future Cambridge children, so including Louis.

That was the chance to then change the rules for Harry too.

Not wait till he marries a black woman. Harry was dating blondes at the time of the changes (maybe that is why the whole thing is suspicious).

Equally, notanotheroneagain, they didn’t take the opportunity to include Harry’s future children in the revised rules they were putting in place, which they also could easily have done, so perhaps the position is neutral?

I admired H&M not giving Archie a title when he was born, I thought they were looking along the lines of Princess Anne. I vaguely knew that when Charles became king they would be entitled to be called something, but thought they might plan to do as Edward and Sophie are doing and let the children decide.

I believe in Sweden they have gone with only direct heirs being HRH. I don't think that's a bad idea.

By not making a change to the rules, it meant that Harry's children would then automatically take the Prince titles when PC is king.

The rules were changed in 2012, for children born after October 2011. George was born in 2013.

They were not given the choice @JADS . It was decided for them.

@notanotheroneagain but why would H and M want to inflict HRH titles on their DC ? They consider the organisation to be toxic so why not bring A and L up as private citizens ? They are keeping them away from the public eye - and good for them- but giving them royal titles will leave them open to more scrutiny.

Yes, but they could have included Harry’s future children in the changes they were making for William - i.e. both their children were entitled to be called Prince or Princess from birth as grandchildren of the Prince of Wales.

That’s the change they didn’t make for Harry when making it for William - despite, as you said, him dating blondes at the time.

If A and L become Prince and Princess when PC becomes King why are you so incensed @notanotheroneagain ?

Serenster · Today 21:56
Yes, but they could have included Harry’s future children in the changes they were making for William - i.e. both their children were entitled to be called Prince or Princess from birth as grandchildren of the Prince of Wales.

That’s the change they didn’t make for Harry when making it for William - despite, as you said, him dating blondes at the time.

Good point . Absolutely nothing to do with the colour of MM’s skin .

Archie is entitled to be styled as the oldest son of a Duke with his father’s secondary title, Earl of Dumbarton, Lilibet would be Lady Lilibet. Those are titles their parents have chosen not to use.

Omid Scobie told us this at Archie’s birth. It now sounds like it was “Prince or nothing” behind the scenes.

Also, until Charles is King, under the existing Letters Patent Archie and Lilibet don’t get the titles of Prince and Princess. In that respect then yes, I guess it was decided for Meghan and Harry …. in 1917.