Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet

[Snog]

Do you think Prince Charles will bestow titles on Harry's children when he becomes king?

The intention to reduce HRHs to the direct line is years old. Anne and Mark Phillips declined an earldom on marriage and always preferred their children not to be titled as they’d need to work for a living. They wouldn’t have been HRH anyway because sexism. Prince Edward also accepted the plan and therefore chose not to style his children HRH although he was given the earldom on marriage, so that Sophie wouldn’t be stuck as Princess Edward. He will be Duke of Edinburgh in due course, hence the lesser title on marriage. Prince Andrew has always been an arrogant entitled tool and refused to go along with the plan, insisting that his daughters had the style and title he felt they were entitled to and fuck off to everyone who suggested otherwise. I see no reason to change the long term plan now based on allegations, especially as H & M do not even reside in the UK.

I think you've replied to the wrong person, @PinkPinkTonic !

Sorry, @PinkTonic - the site doubled your pink!

He will be Duke of Edinburgh in due course, hence the lesser title on marriage.

That will be entirely up to the present Duke of Edinburgh, whose other title among many, is Prince of Wales. When Charles becomes King, the D of E title merges with the Crown, and he can bestow on anyone he chooses, who likely will be Edward, based on past statements.

As others have pointed out, as things stand now, Archie and Lilibet will have princely status when Charles becomes King. But Charles can issue new Letters Patent that could remove that status. It's tricky, though, because it could also change the status of the Princesses of York.

I think it more likely that the Sussexes will go the Wessex route and not use the HRH titles and that Charles will issue new LPs, but making them applicable for future births as opposed to retroactively removing titles.

@SenecaFallsRedux

I think it more likely that the Sussexes will go the Wessex route and not use the HRH titles and that Charles will issue new LPs, but making them applicable for future births as opposed to retroactively removing titles.

And I firmly believe they will grab the Prince and Princess titles with both hands . They are not allowed to use HRH ( like Andrew) but they use Duke and Duchess despite the titles being bestowed by the “toxic” RF.

I really doubt they will "grab" titles as they have ones now that their children are entitled to, but from the beginning (even when working royals), they chose not to.

They are not allowed to use HRH ( like Andrew) but they use Duke and Duchess despite the titles being bestowed by the “toxic” RF.

Harry and Meghan are allowed to use their HRH titles (and they do still legally possess HRHs), they simply agreed to stop using them.

If they wanted to re-start using their HRH titles tomorrow they'd be perfectly legally entitled to do so. Harry used "HRH" on both his children's birth certificate so he still has the right to use it. Meghan used her HRH on Archie's birth certificate but not Lili's, which presumably represents her personal feelings towards her HRH title.

Prince Andrew has always been an arrogant entitled tool and refused to go along with the plan, insisting that his daughters had the style and title he felt they were entitled to and fuck off to everyone who suggested otherwise.

Not the easiest of sentences to type, but: I think you're being unduly harsh on Prince Andrew here. At the time his daughters were born it was completely normal and expected that they would be HRHs and princesses. I've never seen any reference to talk of slimming the monarchy until long after they were born.

The novel approach was Edward's, not Andrew's.

Similarly, when Harry was born the idea that his children wouldn't be titled would have been unthinkable.

My memory could be wrong but I seem to recall that when Beatrice was born it was suggested that A and S follow Anne’s example and refuse titles but A insisted that his DC be treated as Senior Royals . He has argued for years that B and E should be working Royals with all the privileges that go with it .
I can’t remember when POW made it publicly known that he favoured a slimmed down RF but it’s many years ago .

There was no serious talk about Andrew’s girls not being titled that I recall. It was just the done thing.

it was a big surprise when it was announced that Edward’s children wouldn’t be using Prince or Princess.

Charles has never openly discussed his slimming plan, but it should be remembered that back in the 80s he wasn’t the one making the decisions. The Queen was 100% in charge back then and the Queen mother was still around making her opinions very much known. Titles, and refusal of them, was a huge thing for the QM as the saga with the Duke of Windsor played such a big thing for her.

I don't think this is accurate. When Beatrice was born, it was assumed she would have the title princess under the Letters Patent of 1917. Also Anne's situation is really irrelevant; she (because sexism) could never pass down a royal title because they only pass in the male line (George VI had to issue special LPs so that Charles and Anne could be prince/princess when they were born.) The choice Anne and her husband made was not to accept an earldom for him, as Princess Margaret and Antony Armstrong-Jones did. The most that Anne's children could have had in the way of titles was Lord and Lady, through her husband. She turned down a noble courtesy titles for her children, royal titles for them was not even considered.

The BBC website has their announcement of Beatrice’s birth archived on their “On This Day” page . Their story noted that the Duke and Duchess of York have announced the birth of their first child, a daughter:

“The as-yet-unnamed baby, whose title is the Princess of York weighed 6lb 12 oz”

As I said I could be wrong , I just seem to recall someone ( Ingrid Seward ?) reporting the suggestion that they didn’t use their titles ( which I agree they were automatically entitled to ) but A went apoplectic.

I’ve heard that said in recent years but never at the time.

It would have been massively unexpected at the time imo.

I think the public discussion arose around the time of Louise's birth that with the "slimming down" notions, B and E might be de-princessed. I think that's what got Andrew in a dither.

It wouldn't surprise me if over the years (ie before Meghan even met Harry) that Charles has mused on the different options for slimming down the monarchy in front of William and Harry. And Harry had always assumed that he'd be treated like William and a special exception made for his kids - and that any changes would simply affect the rest of the family.

I think Charles or William will make a change and grant a Letters Patent that just gives George's / the direct heir's children titles. And their direct heirs and so on.

That would put Louis and Charlotte on an equal footing with their children not getting titles and continue to slim down the monarchy. It also takes the sexism element out of it.

The Diamond Jubilee balcony appearance sent a clear signal - it was HM, Charles and Camilla, William and Kate, and Harry.
This was before Harry met Meghan.
Charles was indicating the future. His sons and their future families.

I completely agree with the messaging of that balcony appearance. And Charles’ intentions for Meghan and Harry to be senior working royals was signalled by the titles Harry was given on marriage, and the patronages and engagements that Meghan was immediately given. I just don’t think any of that means Charles didn’t also think that their children wouldn’t need to be Princes/Princesses as they likely wouldn’t themselves be senior working royals.

You're right, @Serenster - that was definitely the plan. The Commonwealth roles were also an indicator of prominent, significant and valued roles.

Britain’s obsession with titles says do much about the country and the “subjects” who positively like the idea of being lower than.

The class system is so ingrained and people accept it and hate the idea of anyone rising above their station.

🤓

With the £100m of taxpayers money spent on them, they need to be slimmed down.

Harry has been saying well before he met Meghan he wanted out. So how was he expecting or desperate for equal treatment with William? The tradition is long. Why would Harry suddenly lose his mind and expect to be treated the same as the next in line?

Harry wanted to escape that dysfunctional family. All some British people can do is bellyache about titles. So strange.