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The royal family

Prince Andrew Thread 2

999 replies

Roussette · 03/01/2022 11:34

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4442126-Prince-Andrew

Here is previous thread.

I've started a new thread because today and tomorrow is crucial as far as the pending civil case.

And I also had a few comments I wanted to say to posters at the end of the last thread, but it ran out.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
JacquelineCarlyle · 08/01/2022 16:40

Is there any hard physical evidence or will this all come down to he said she said? If so, I fear he'll get off altogether.

Vapeyvapevape · 08/01/2022 16:41

Why are the women not being advised to keep quiet until the trial?

KittenCatcher · 08/01/2022 16:43

Jacqueline, I wonder about this too but dont know much about the law. Is it up to her to prove this happened or for him to prove it didnt. Is there any evidence from either or them.

TheKeatingFive · 08/01/2022 16:44

I'm pretty sure that legal consent isn't possible if the person is trafficked. No matter what their text messages say.

user1363157897422457887532356 · 08/01/2022 16:49

What the law says about consent and what juries decide about consent are rarely the same thing.

As for the question of "force", in English law it is about "coercion" (and capacity) not "force". Saying that someone who has been trafficked to a private island from which they cannot simply up and leave still has meaningful freedom to refuse without consequences is disingenuous.

user1363157897422457887532356 · 08/01/2022 16:58

So many of the comments on this thread seem to be based on the fantasy that juries make decisions based on truth and facts rather than biases and opinions.

The whole system starts from a position of blaming victims and juries are very much part of that.

Even this thread keeps debating the various ways in which she is not a "perfect" victim despite the fact no victim ever meets that standard and it is pure myth designed to protect rapists and abusers.

Could we maybe stop colluding in the victim blaming narrative that protects the men we claim to abhor.

Noisyprat · 08/01/2022 17:00

How do you prove consent though? would they say that because she didn't leave she was consenting? PA said it is all untrue yet this other woman has come out and her comments indicate it was true however the actual wording, unless the texts are retrievable, cannot be proven.

Surely it's also possible that if this girl was being recruited/encouraged then VG could have been told/forced to 'big' things up to encourage her? JE and GM were effectively sharks and VG was a victim.

Vapeyvapevape · 08/01/2022 17:11

Will the prosecution use the News Night interview as evidence, ? I hope so as it proves PA ,IMO, to be a liar.

TVTestCard · 08/01/2022 17:40

Vapey I think the woman who has just spoken did wait, in terms of Maxwell’s trial. I don’t know if she’ll be involved in VRG’s case though. If you are called as a witness in a civil case do you have to attend?

Roussette · 08/01/2022 18:01

Will the prosecution use the News Night interview as evidence, ? I hope so as it proves PA ,IMO, to be a liar

He's fucked then! Grin

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KimikosNightmare · 08/01/2022 18:37

@Puzzledandpissedoff

(The chalet) was only partly paid and the seller holds a mortgage over it for the balance. PA and Fergie missed a payment and are already trying to sell it to pay the seller. If they don't pay her, she can call up her security and sell it

I think someone upthread said she's actually agreed to wait for her money until it's sold, which would indeed fit in with them "trying to sell"

Personally I'd have wanted my money now, especially with the cash he's clearly able to find for other things, so now I wonder how she came to agree to defer it?

It's rare but not unheard of for a seller to agree postponed payment. The seller is effectively lending that part of the price so would expect to take a legal charge over the property same as any other lender.

Why it happened here - goodness knows. One imagines that the members of the rarefied world of chalet owners in Verbier can all afford to buy them outright but who knows? Maybe it's all a house of cards.

PlanktonsComputerWife · 08/01/2022 19:07

Thanks, OP. The raging alkie in me loves your username, too.WinkWine

I am so sorry to hear Prince Andrew is on the bones of his arse. 🎻 Perhaps Fergie can flog him for more cash.

Prince Andrew Thread 2
KittenCatcher · 08/01/2022 19:14

If he is telling the truth and is innocent then surely he just agrees to the trial if there is one, sues and donates his money to an appropriate charity.

Roussette · 08/01/2022 19:26

Plankton yes, it's wine... all wine glug Wine

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OverByYer · 08/01/2022 19:35

I think Will Young for Lionfish

OverByYer · 08/01/2022 19:35

Definitely Will Young he can’t disguise his lovely singing voice

diddl · 08/01/2022 19:45

@OverByYer

I think Will Young for Lionfish
??Grin
BIWI · 08/01/2022 19:48

Wrong thread I think!

OverByYer · 08/01/2022 20:07

Sorry guys!

CathyorClaire · 08/01/2022 20:36

I'm not sure that that many of them are personally wealthy

They are all obscenely wealthy. Helped along with trust funds, historical tax breaks, monarch to monarch bequests being free of inheritance tax, dumping every expense they can on the taxpayer and of course benefitting from the sealed wills charade which hides the transfers of wealth from the public.

Andrew is estimated to be worth around £57m and of course benefits from a very sweet deal on the lease at Royal Lodge which gives him the run of it for £250 a week.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/10174751/prince-andrew-questions-fortune-third-richest-royal/

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-andrew-allowed-rent-vast-21003750

diddl · 08/01/2022 21:31

"Andrew is estimated to be worth around £57m"

Then why would his mum be paying anything at all re legal fees?

Roussette · 08/01/2022 21:43

@cathyorClaire

Spot in. They are HUGELY wealthy because they are treated advantageously.
We don't know half of it

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Roussette · 08/01/2022 21:44

Spot on, that should say

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Vapeyvapevape · 08/01/2022 21:47

I hope all of this leads to a spotlight being shone on them and their finances.
I kind of feel sorry for the Queen but not if she bails him out.

prh47bridge · 08/01/2022 22:45

Having been out for the evening, I'll respond to a lot of points in one post!

Surely, if you have been coerced, manipulated or bribed then 'consenting' is under some sort of duress.

Accepting a bribe to participate in a sexual act would be classed as consent, otherwise anyone using the services of a sex worker would be committing an offence. Whether manipulation takes away consent is not a simple question. We all try to manipulate other people to do what we want. If a man sweet talks his way into your bed, he has manipulated you but that doesn't mean your consent is not real. Coercion is another matter. If you are coerced, that is not consent.

Why are the women not being advised to keep quiet until the trial?

Which women are being advised to keep quiet? It would certainly be a good idea for the women who gave evidence against Maxwell to keep quiet in case there is a retrial. If they give interviews, it could prejudice a retrial. As far as I am aware, the only woman involved in VG vs Andrew is VG who is keeping quiet.

Jacqueline, I wonder about this too but dont know much about the law. Is it up to her to prove this happened or for him to prove it didnt. Is there any evidence from either or them.

VG is the one making the allegations, so it is up to her to prove that they happened. Andrew does not have to prove that it didn't happen. However, she only has to prove her allegations on the balance of probabilities ("the preponderance of the evidence", to use the US term). She does not have to prove them beyond reasonable doubt.

I'm pretty sure that legal consent isn't possible if the person is trafficked. No matter what their text messages say.

You would be wrong. It is definitely an offence if someone pays or offers to pay for sex with someone who has been trafficked. If someone is being unlawfully detained there is a presumption that they did not consent, but that is a rebuttable presumption - in other words, you can overcome that presumption if you can produce enough evidence that they did, in fact, consent. Legal consent is definitely possible when someone has been trafficked, at least in the UK. Not sure about the US.

Will the prosecution use the News Night interview as evidence, ? I hope so as it proves PA ,IMO, to be a liar.

Don't know about the US but it would have little evidential value in the UK as he was not under caution or under oath.

If you are called as a witness in a civil case do you have to attend?

In the UK, an unwilling witness can be forced to attend, but that doesn't mean they have to be helpful. Not sure about the US.

If he is telling the truth and is innocent then surely he just agrees to the trial if there is one, sues and donates his money to an appropriate charity.

This being the US, where civil cases are heard by jury, the first thing he should do is try everything he can to avoid a trial, as his lawyers are doing. Also, she is taking action against him, not the other way round. He won't be awarded anything if he wins.