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The royal family

Harry & Meghan what they’ll do next - Thread 2

999 replies

DandyAF · 01/03/2020 16:18

Carrying on the conversation as the last thread finished mid-discussion.

OP posts:
PelicanPie · 06/03/2020 16:49

DRM

Yes, exactly

BillieEilish · 06/03/2020 16:51

Indeed DRM

The thread is called 'What H&M will do next?'

Could we stick to that and not racism? Nothing on here is racist.

7salmonswimming · 06/03/2020 16:56

@Myimaginarycathasfleas

Intent is everything

If there's one thing to learn from this tangent into racism, it's that this is absolutely not true. It's not okay (to coin an apt phrase) to be unintentionally racist. For the avoidance of doubt, it's NEVER okay, under any circumstances, to be racist.

If you can't help yourself being racist, if it just came out as a turn of phrase and you didn't mean to imply malice, if you rushed off a post and just weren't thinking it through properly - TOO BAD. Make the effort. If you don't want to, you have to take the consequence of being labelled racist because each and every day people on the receiving end of racism make all the effort, all the time.

So no, intent isn't everything. Intent is irrelevant, to anything but the target's decision about how to look upon you and your comment. Some targets will be forgiving. Some will call upon generations of disadvantage and hand it back to you with both barrels. Them's the breaks. If you don't fancy the fight, don't start it.

Watch what you say. This goes for everything, all the time.

DeRigueurMortis · 06/03/2020 16:58

Excellent post 7

7salmonswimming · 06/03/2020 17:01

(Reading that back, I wasn't aiming those last few sentences at you specifically myimaginary.)

Becles · 06/03/2020 17:01

Thank you@Tsukukuviri

The problem is that so many posters have had such fun sticking the boot in that challenging some breathtakingly spiteful and derogatory posts becomes overwhelming.

The dog whistle phrases and subtext are obvious to many and disingenuous shock when called out doesn't diminish the wish to see MM brought down several pegs.

Wasn't there a finding that just 20 IP addresses were responsible for about 70% of the anti MM posts online? I'd love to have someone track the same for MN.

If someone does attack MM or her child it'll be because they were wound up by the bile of threads like this.

SparklingLime · 06/03/2020 17:12

Anyone who is objecting to suggestions of racism might find this interesting...

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/16/white-fragility-racism-interview-robin-diangelo

One issue is that important discussions, such as that started by @Tsukukuviri, are derailed by people saying, “Racist??! Me! How very dare you!!”. As if the suggestion of racism is of more importance than racism itself.

Allflightscancelled · 06/03/2020 17:13

There is no bile about MM or Harry on this thread

Encyclo · 06/03/2020 17:14

*I didn't see yolo's post before it was zapped but I completely accept her explanation. Intent is everything, and she apologised unreservedly for unintentionally giving offence.

I don't think anyone means to offend here, do they? If we accidentally do, then it should be enough to calmly point this out in the spirit of friendly exchange.*

Pretty much everything you said after "I didn't read the post" is irrelevant.

I would be very careful about going down the road of, "if we're coming across as racist we don't mean to be."

DeRigueurMortis · 06/03/2020 17:19

@Becles

Do you believe H&M are beyond criticism?

Do you not think as people who receive (and wish to receive vastly more) taxpayer money in recognition of roles of members of the royal family (a role they no longer wish to undertake except on their terms) are not subject public scrutiny for their actions?

It's not "bile" to point out the huge gap between their stated forward aspirations and their rationale for them vs the means by which they sought to go about achieving them which in many cases were in direct conflict.

It's been stated repeatedly on this thread how difficult the issue of security is and I've not seen a single post that suggests they want the couple or their child put in danger.

Quite the reverse. The general consensus has been that despite their "defection" from the RF security funding should be retained at current levels - despite many other SM forums arguing robustly they should lose it altogether.

If that security budget is not sufficient however it should be up to them to top it up or take a very reasonable level of responsibility for their own safety by make appropriate choices that cut their coat to their cloth.

Myimaginarycathasfleas · 06/03/2020 17:24

No worries, 7salmonswimming Grin

There's a bit too much heat in this topic for me. I'm happy to go back to lurking.

Winterlife · 06/03/2020 17:25

This reply has been deleted

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Winterlife · 06/03/2020 17:30

On these threads, it has been fascinating to see the (treatment) of Thomas, whose every word reveals him to be a total narcissistic.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it?

SparklingLime · 06/03/2020 17:30

This reply has been deleted

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Allflightscancelled · 06/03/2020 17:32

If I had her figure I'd not bother with Spanx

Winterlife · 06/03/2020 17:33

This reply has been deleted

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Winterlife · 06/03/2020 17:34

If I had her figure I'd not bother with Spanx

I agree she doesn't need Spanx, but the outline of her dress suggests she was wearing them.

DandyAF · 06/03/2020 17:35

I doubt many of us would match up to Michelle Obama. It wouldn’t be fair to compare MM to her simply because they’re two WOC in the public eye.

OP posts:
ilovejeffgoldblum · 06/03/2020 17:39

Please would everyone remember, a sure way to derail and get a thread deleted, is to mention racism.

BillieEilish · 06/03/2020 17:40

Also going back to lurking, it's taken a wrong turn (as always). Thanks for the thread Dandy, it was a good one for a long while.

yolofish · 06/03/2020 17:41

I think it is becoming almost impossible to discuss M and H's actions now without being accused of something - racism, misogny, anti-Americanism, anti-Kardashianism.

God forbid that British taxpayers should wonder where their taxes are going and how much we are expected to pay for a couple who, let's face it, jumped ship pdq. As often said, they could have their quiet life on one of the many Royal estates, protected by the system here, free from the paps.

I will say though, that there are many women in African townships who are desperately afraid that their baby daughters will be raped in the name of 'saving' the menz from AIDS, and I think this pretty commonly reported in the media.

I know there are also many many professional black women in SA who are running businesses, providing employment, helping their sisters.

One doesn't cancel out the other, and raising £250k from the lunch for one's own benefit with the latter doesnt, as far as I can see, do much for the former - if someone can point me in the direction of evidence otherwise then I'd be very grateful.

DandyAF · 06/03/2020 17:43

Don’t go Billie and fleas Sad

OP posts:
Tsukukuviri · 06/03/2020 17:45

Thank you so much to all of you for your thoughtful engagement with my post, even where we may not agree.

@DandyAF you are absolutely right to say Doria has not been mentioned negatively in this thread: I was merely pointing out what you call “historical posts“ to enlighten those interested as to why they may be problematic. But I take you point, absolutely.

I would also hate to dismiss everyone as racist, that’s simply not the case, I did though want to point out some unconscious biases that posters may not be aware of.

@yolofish thanks for reconsidering your post but again you double down: so let me say again that not every woman in SA lives in a shanty town. Meghan met many women who were students for instance, and government officials, NGO workers etc and there were many positive comments about her in the SA press from women from all walks of life. If you can get your head around this basic fact, that black women come in all sorts of packages, you may understand why, to those who are ambitious and come from humble backgrounds, Meghan might be both inspirational and aspirational. Again, not every Black woman lives in a shanty town.

But it is comments like @PelicanPie that also really trouble me.

Race is a social construct that is not just about how individuals perceive others. It is about how entire societies perceive them. So it is extremely insulting, and indeed jaw dropping, to dismiss Meghan as “half white” in a context where entire societies, their Constitutions, their laws, a whole slave trade on three continents, Jim Crow etc, has evolved around the blackness of Africans and what that blackness, and degrees of blackness, means.

Please, please, I ask you to read up on the one drop rule, think about the psychological effects of being told that just one drop of black blood makes you black, think about the system of apartheid in my own country, about colourism in the Caribbean, indeed, think what it means that entire nations in the Caribbean are made up of the descendants of African slaves.

Race issues run deep for black people and are and have been deeply scarring.

I wish it were as simple as “we are all part of the human race” but unfortunately it really isn’t. And to dismiss people whose entire lives has been shaped by their race, or to refuse to accept how they identify themselves, is just not right.

I will get off the soapbox now, and continue my petition for @MNHQ for a Race and Racism board which goes beyond the issues raised in this and other threads.

Thanks so much again and enjoy the rest of the discussion.

PrettyPity · 06/03/2020 17:46

@tsukukuviri ndafara chaizvo kuverenga post yako Wink

DeRigueurMortis · 06/03/2020 17:54

@Tsukukuviri

Re: your petition for a new topic on race/racism how are you petitioning MNHQ for that?

I think it's a good idea (in the same spirit as the FWR topics are).

I'm asking simply if there's a place/thread where posters who agree with you can lend their support?