Harry & Meghan what they’ll do next - Thread 2

[DandyAF]

Carrying on the conversation as the last thread finished mid-discussion.

@Tsukukuviri 👏👏

@winterlife I wasn't having a go at you about the Spanx comment at all. I was just musing wistfully about where my waistline went.

@tsukukuviri - where did I say anything like every Black woman lives in a shanty town? Because I really really didnt.

If you can get your head around this basic fact, that black women come in all sorts of packages - of course I understand this, why do you think I dont?

I'd actually be really interested in your response to that, and I agree with your proposal for a race and racism board.

Again, I apologise for upsetting you, it was never and never would be my intent to do so - actually I don't want to upset anyone in general.

@Allflightscancelled, it's all good.

There are new photos up of MM's visit to the National Theatre. She is in an off the rack (and cheap) skirt/blouse which FIT her, is wearing less make up, and today (or yesterday, I suppose), does look incredible.

@PrettyPity kana neni ndafara zvikuru kukuverenga! What a pleasant surprise to find this language on Mumsnet!

But it is considered poor etiquette to speak a non-English language before English speakers, so let me translate and say

@PrettyPity told me in a shared African language that she was delighted by my post, and in the same language, I told her I was delighted to read her words in that language!

I hope we have not broken Talk Guidelines!

I'm waiting for the thread deletion announcement. I'm only interested in the money aspect. Money splashed right left and centre from the public purse on two people who think the UK is toxic and racist. Doesn't make any sense. I would be just as critical if Harry had married Chelsy Davy and they had decided to leave the UK with all the perks and none of the duty.

@yolofish please don’t worry about it. I don’t want to belabour the point because I think we are now understanding each other. And thanks for your support for the new board, I think it should be a separate topic like Feminism. I would be so curious to know what you and others think of wider race issues: there was some odd stuff here around the death of Kobe Bryant for instance.

And I can’t remember who asked whether M is beyond criticism.

I have serious misgivings about some of the things M and H have done, and am sensitive to how utterly tone deaf some of it is.

I am not a UK tax payer but can fully understand how frustrating it must be to imagine paying for their security into perpetuity when they are no longer working royals.

But here is the thing. H can’t escape his blood ties, or his service in
Afghanistan. He and his family will always be vulnerable as terrorist targets etc.

At the same time, the frenzy being whipped up by the DM etc means that they also become more of a target as hate figures.

I gather they want to make their own money, but they are in a bind because any obviously commercial and crass ventures will embarrass the Royal Family.

So they can’t fully fund their security as they would need vast amounts of money, and yet it would be unconscionable to withdraw it.

It is a genuine quandary that may be easier to address if they remained in the UK but not as working Royals.

But even that will be problematic to many.

Put it this way, this is not an easy decision for anyone, least of all for the precedent it will set.

But there is also the opposite precedent: do you really as a nation want to keep members of this one family imprisoned and unable to live full lives simply because of who they were born as, and because you pay for them? Should K and W’s children, and Archie, have no choice at all but be mindful to “duty”, in a country where frankly, the most important role is that of the monarch, but parliament has over the years reduced the role of that monarch to being merely ceremonial?

I genuinely don’t know.

OK tsukukuviri virtual handshake (or actually elbow bump, corona 'n all) thank you for your kindness.

You raise some very interesting points, especially about should we as a nation be 'keeping someone prisoner'.

I don't know the answer to that. But I do think if HaM wanted privacy, safety and peace and quiet it would be more easily achieved in the UK than elsewhere. K&W get lots of it; their children aren't papped - or if they are, the photos aren't published here.

Frying pan into fire seems to be what they have done. And it pisses me off personally that they could stay here, have a quiet life, have normal security (for Royals) at a third of the cost of what they seem to be expecting, while at the same time respecting the institution he was born into and she chose to marry into.

I would support starting a Race & Racism board, @Tsukukuviri. But I think it’s also vital to bring it up wherever relevant, as you’ve done here.

@Tsukukviri thank you for such a considered post. I'm sorry that I had a knee-jerk reaction to your first one. I understand that the post you found offensive doesn't exist in a vacuum, even if the non-vacuum isn't on this particular thread. My paraphrasing, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I would like it if you stuck around and posted more on this thread but get that you may not wish to!

For me, this has brought up the interesting Q of what we (general 'we') expect from our princesses.

MM was in SA in her role as a princess of the British RF. As a WOC she connected with and showed respect to her audience when giving a speech to South African WOC. Does that mean that she owes them more, as suggested? That she needs to put her money where her mouth is by 'proving' she is their sister and doing more in some way for any SA WOC she met who needed assistance?

Personally I don't think it does.

But it's a weighted expectation that naturally often falls on to people who represent some minority characteristic, be it race, disability or sexual orientation.

All of the royals use their own experiences to relate to certain interests and groups of people. But - putting mental health to the side - MM is not just the first non-white member of the RF, she's the first to publicly have a minority characteristic. If one of the other RF members were openly gay or clearly disabled (I don't know of any hidden disabilities so there may be some), they'd be in a similar position to a certain extent. But there's no precedent at all.

DandyAF
I doubt many of us would match up to Michelle Obama. It wouldn’t be fair to compare MM to her simply because they’re two WOC in the public eye.

I first mentioned Michelle Obama in the context of MM being regarded as a role model for black women in SA. MO is also a role model for black women and girls, and my unwritten suggestion was that she was a better one. I pointed out that MO came from a humble background but bettered herself through entirely her own efforts and does not occupy a position which some might see as spurious.

So not just compared because they are both WOC in the public eye.

Yes I get that Rumboogie

Don't worry, Dandy, not flouncing, just feeling a tad misunderstoodwhich is clearly down to me not expressing myself well enough. I never meant to suggest that racism was ok if accidental. I feel embarrassed that people might have read my post in that way.

Blame it on a heavy head cold, when the fog clears I might make a bit more sense!

It would be a great shame if this thread was deleted.

At the same time, the frenzy being whipped up by the DM etc means that they also become more of a target as hate figures.

I doubt rather highly DM readers (or readers of any tabloids) would be stalking HaM to North America to attack them.

Carrying in from what I was just saying as I'm still thinking about it -

For me, princesses are not role models. I don't view being a princess or being famous as aspirational. I don't pay more stock by what Meghan or Kate or Sophie say authoritatively on anything other than being royal or their own personal experiences and past histories, unless they've put in the work experience while royal.

However I do think it's more complicated should someone from a minority group become a global, famous figure, even if it's by marrying into royalty. In that situation they automatically are more likely to be viewed as role models.

I have been musing this question in my head since this morning. And having worked all day it’s still there. So although not in the theme of recent posts (although that could a welcome corner).

What makes a MUA that good to be flown from NY? MM has a lovely face and good contours it seems. So why the need? And the bit I’m musing is could they do wonders for me? Or do you have to have the fine points first?

I mean I do try. I use eye cream, specialist face cream, concealer, foundation matched to my tone. Sometimes blend eye shadows etc all the usual. But what would a MUA and one from NY do extra to essentially give her a natural look?

I dunno, I think Kate and Sophie have put the time, and the work, in. Neither had it easy (waity katie, doors to manual, the wysteria sisters, and of course the fake sheikh).

And now they are getting the lurve. I think the lurve was absolutely 100% there for HaM (leaving aside the odd fuckwit) but then they just... seemed to blow it? This country wanted to see H happy, and seemed delighted he'd found the woman he wanted to marry - and she him. Certainly the wedding coverage was very positive.

do you really as a nation want to keep members of this one family imprisoned and unable to live full lives simply because of who they were born as, and because you pay for them?

I think the issue I have with this is that nobody chooses the family they are born in to (although you could argue you do choose the family you marry in to). I'm sure many thousands of families in this country feel trapped, restricted and living unfullfilled lives due to financial reasons, but don't have the luxury to run away with taxpayers money to live their best life abroad, or wherever they choose.

Absolutely they should not be forced to fulfil Royal duties and choose to live a private life if they so wish, but at what cost to the taxpayer, unlimited? I don't think so.

I wonder that too cutting! And I think we have pretty good MUA's here too. They would struggle with me though, but MM cannot be a struggle for any MUA I'd have thought.

shit, random apostrophe, shoot me now...

Sorry I should have made it clear I mean had done the work when it comes to learning about a specific issue that they're talking about. So they have some knowledge and authority on it.

@Cuttingthegrass

Are we positive MM flew her MUA over just to be with her? I would hope that she could have found someone in London who she trusted to both do a good job and be discreet.

@DandyAF thanks so much for this direction. So much to think about! I think this is at the heart of why M found it so hard to find a sure footing. Like many, I wish she had given it more time.

She was a “fresh face”, non-white, American, divorcée, ex-working woman in a role that had never been occupied by anyone like her. So she could take that role in a different direction, to suit her interests. But as you imply, that was always going to be constrained by the historical and traditional expectations around what it meant to be a “Princess of the United Kingdom”, not helped by the comparisons with her sister-in/law who in many ways has set the mould so well.

So indeed, you are right to say the “ inspirational and aspirational Black woman lens” I am viewing her from is just one facet, and not the only one, to her role.

It’s a facet that certainly helped non traditional supporters of the RF to relate and connect etc to her, but the RF has always been bigger than its individual members.

And that’s where it came undone.

What we see of M suggests a steely minded and determined woman who was fully formed already and who simply did not have the patience for the traditions etc.

To be fair to the RF, I suspect the family itself especially the Queen, perhaps remembering her own early battles to be herself, was willing to give her latitude, but as we know, the Firm is not run just by the family. Then of course public expectations came into it.

You have given me much to think about thanks!

tsuku re a race and racism board, can you not just contact MNHQ directly and ask for it? I'm sure they'd consider it willingly, although they may be worried about moderation...

What we see of M suggests a steely minded and determined woman who was fully formed already and who simply did not have the patience for the traditions etc

SO TRUE! I just think of it from the pov of when you get a new boss, who wants to cast all the established processes aside and it gets peoples' backs up. Much better to work from within, and take it slowly to start with, get people on your side. I have a (white) SA friend who I worked with - we were disagreeing about something and she said "I want you pissing out from the tent, not into it".

@Tsukukuviri thank you so much for your considered and thought provoking post. It has stopped this thread really degenerating into nastiness and hopefully given some posters, me included, pause for thought.