Is this the end of the road for our dog (biting)

[sadanddistressed]

We have a dog. 90% of the time he is a big teddy bear, lovely, etc etc.
But he is a rescue and he has a lot of quirks.
We are happy to live around most his quirks, eg he is a terrible food thief.
He barks out of the front window, so that door is closed during the day.
We have done loads and loads of training for some of his quirks, eg he was very reactive to other dogs. He still is up to a point. When out walking I would never walk up to another dog on a path and be able to pass, we always head off to the side, do a circle, take a turning etc, but he is so much better and calmer, and now we can easily work round that. He can now walk pass at a short distance. In the early days, when he was being really reactive he snapped at everything.

But one of his quirks is that he resource guards really badly. If he took a packet from the kitchen and I tried to get it off him, I would risk getting bitten.

and another is that he has snapped/nipped when startled several times. Eg sleep startle he was woken up and whipped round and snapped sort of all in one action, (and nipped the person who woke him) then woke up properly.

We don't have small children. Our youngest is 18. We have had the dog for 4 years. He is not our first dog. He is 6.5 years old.
In that time we have been nipped quite a number of times, especially at the beginning when he was being reactive. But each time there was a 'reason' eg early on when he went nuts seeing another dog and I was controlling him, he nipped me. Now I know how to control him in a way so that that doesn't happen.
When my husband unwisely tried to take something he had, even though he was growling, he got nipped.
He is big, 30kgs. He is a guardian breed cross.

One time my daughter came into our room in the morning, our door was open and he was on the floor, and he lunged at her, she shut the door and nothing happened, but after that we have had pretty tight protocols in place round him, as I no longer trusted him.

Since then we have only had one incident, which was in the middle of the night, and so could be excused by sleep startle.

So these 'nipping' episodes are about once a year and in between he is fine, cuddly, cute, friendly. He is generally very people friendly etc. But since the lunge at my daughter, I will always have him on a lead if we have visitors with children.

I am calling them nips because I am aware that if a big dog wanted to bite, he could take a couple of fingers off, so what is happening is that he is snapping and nipping, rather than biting, but it breaks the skin and leaves a good bruise, so it is not insignificant. After the last one, which was the middle of the night one, I said that he was on his last chance.

On Monday night he was lying on the sofa. I came into the lounge, was speaking to dh, dog woke up and was lying watching me. He was upside down, I stroked his tummy and he wiggled and stretched. I sat down next to him and stroked his tummy again (this is normal, every evening, this is how he lies next to me on the sofa, the only difference is that I joined him instead of him joining me) I was sitting there talking to dh and stroking his tummy, and he suddenly went for my hand, I whipped my hand out of the way and he went again several times for my hand. I have a puncture wound, bruise and nasty scratch. So not real bite wounds, but not great.

I think we can't keep him. I think that someone is going to get hurt.
I will not rehome a biting dog, as I cannot guarantee that they will follow what we say about him, and they will think is is cute and fluffy and someone will get hurt.
I don't trust most rescues to be honest enough, they will do an assessment and he will seem fine.
He goes to kennels when we are away, and he is meek and sweet at kennels.
That means the only option is PTS which seems catastrophic compared to what is happening.

I am just so torn. He is lying on the floor next to me now looking like a sweetie pie.

Dh doesn't get it. He says it is my decision, which is also making me really angry as I feel I am being forced into being the bad guy.

What would you do?

I have name changed for this.

PTS. It’s a horrible decision, I know. But you’ve done your very best by him. I’d have done it before now, TBH.

This is biting, not nipping. Breaking skin and bruising! Look up the bite scale. He is a large dog and this is not OK. I'm sorry, I know, it's hard, I've been in your position before. PTS is the right option, for everybody's sake.

Other incidents can be understood, from a dog perspective - including the one with your daughter - but being fine being stroked one minute and the lunging the next is unusual. I'd take him to the vets for a full check up and then make a decision.

No one should ever PTS a dog without getting a vet to check them first when a behavioural change is involved.

I think honestly PTS. You've tried. You've revolved your life around him. And the latest episode there was no reasoning for it. And he went again and again, not a nip and retreat. I've had a friend who had to do the same. She was devastated, but said the same (and this was a much smaller dog), that someone was going to get seriously hurt and you could see it down the line.

Dogs don't understand about tomorrow. Love him for a week, spoil him rotten and then get the vet to come out.

I'm guessing you have engaged in professional training (not just watching a few YouTube videos) for the resource guarding? If not I would start there. Get a professional trainer/ behaviorist involved.

If you have exhausted training. Then yes, as a biter the dog does need to be PTS. As you have realised it would be a miserable life in a rescue kennels and finding a good home would be hard for him. Better PTS with your family, who he knows and ending with a good life of being loved than languishing years in kennels or experiencing multiple failed homes before been PTS.

Sorry OP, you are totally minimising how dangerous he is.

I agree with PP, PTS is the kindest thing.

I agree about vet.
We got him checked out when he went for my daughter, and he was fine.
I understand what you are saying from a dog's perspective, but that incident was in some ways more shocking than him biting me, it was daylight, we had been downstairs and he had been out for a wee, the doors were all open and she often comes into our room, so there was 100% no reason for it, and he flew from lying to going for her, and it was only her quick thinking in shutting the door that stopped it. As soon as that happened it was like it had never happened.

No behavioural change seems to have taken place. OP and her family have danced around this dog for years. And he's been indulged.

@sadanddistressed I completely understand. Ultimately, there probably is nothing you can do, but at least with a vet check you'll know you've done all you can. I'm sorry that you're in this position.

Have you seen a vet behaviourist? Would you consider medication? (Prozac). Made all the difference to my dog but it’s expensive (and my dog hadn’t bitten but his behaviour was escalating).

My first instinct is there is pain somewhere. I would be trying to find out what is causing the pain. Pretty much every reactive dog I’ve come across has had a pain issue somewhere. I’d be doing all I could to find out what it is before I put to sleep. If however you are finding the situation unmanageable then PTS is really your only option. But I would urge you to rule pain out first

I have thought about medication.

He is terrified of travelling in the car, so we use medication when we do a car journey, and he is very chill on it.
But I don't really want him on long term medication, and I'm not sure that the fear he will bite again will ever go away.

I certainly would not trust him around kids.
Which is hard to say, because he loves people and kids and is very gentle - but if he suddenly turns round and bites that is a disaster and there is no warning.
Fortunately at the moment we don't really have kids visiting.

except the vet has said he was fine last time this happened?

PTS. Dogs have no concept of tomorrow, or death. He’s loved, will go to sleep loved, and just never wake up. All he knows is that he is loved (and you lnow you love him and want to avoid him being passed around, or not feeling loved before being PRS after a serious bite).

Honestly you should have PTS when he tried to attack your daughter. You are minimising very dangerous behaviour and it is only a matter of time before he really hurts someone.

You sound such a lovely considerate owner and have tried everything. It does sound like you do need to see the vet and PTS if nothing found. I’m so so sorry

he loves people and kids and is very gentle - but if he suddenly turns round and bites that is a disaster and there is no warning.

He's not gentle, OP! You are completely denying reality and minimsing here.

He's a guardian breed cross, he's not meant to be in the house as a pet. Some flukes will be okay living a normal pet life but most people who own guardian breeds can't treat them like a doodle (which is a good thing and how pet dogs should be) and have to change their life around the dog and do things carefully incase they trigger some problem the dog has. Guardian breeds haven't been selected to be good pets like dogs used to be, what was considered a good breeding trait in a guardian breed isn't conducive to living in a house and taking nice walks together.
Every small thing you do to a dog like that, like taking different walking routes and being rightfully nervous when he snaps at you is going to make him snap more because he thinks you're not confident around him and their entire job is controlling things that aren't confident. He probably won't kill you or seriously hurt you, he's just controlling you. He might kill someone elses pet or maim a stranger though, so I'd PTS unless you can exclusively put him in situations where he sees you being very cool and collected and he can live out his days without feeling tense over being in charge in what I assume is a typical English house/garden/neighbourhood setup. Rescues should be ashamed of themselves for placing exotic breeds in normal households.

You have a large, unpredictable, aggressive dog.

Even if you avoid other dogs and keep him in the lead around children, just one mistake could mean very serious injuries.

You know PTS is the right thing to do.

“I will not rehome a biting dog”

OP, I’m very glad to hear this. I knew of someone who had a dog that bit: she rehomed it and was completely truthful to the people taking it about its history of biting - and what do you know, it bit the new people and had to be PTS. Unfortunately in your situation, I don’t think you have a choice: your dog is sadly untrustworthy.

So in the last incident he ‘suddenly went’ for you? And then went for you a few more times? That’s not a nip or even a bite, that’s an attack

This doesn’t sound like new behaviour (which should always be viewed as a vet visit first and foremost)
More an escalation of existing behaviour. Which has been gradually increasing over years. Even if this particular escalation is due to a medical cause, that fact doesn’t change.

I can't bring myself to say PTS because no one can make that decision for you but you have a dangerous unpredictable dog there.

I have a puncture wound, bruise and nasty scratch. So not real bite wounds, but not great.

As much as you don't want to accept it those ARE bite wounds.

Sorry you are in such and awful situation

Well there you have it. He has no pain, but there is a lot of dangerous and unpredictable behaviour.

He won't know you're putting him to sleep, OP. Give him some treats, then let him have the injection.

In that case couldn’t he live in a kennel or enclosure outside?