Is this the end of the road for our dog (biting)

[sadanddistressed]

We have a dog. 90% of the time he is a big teddy bear, lovely, etc etc.
But he is a rescue and he has a lot of quirks.
We are happy to live around most his quirks, eg he is a terrible food thief.
He barks out of the front window, so that door is closed during the day.
We have done loads and loads of training for some of his quirks, eg he was very reactive to other dogs. He still is up to a point. When out walking I would never walk up to another dog on a path and be able to pass, we always head off to the side, do a circle, take a turning etc, but he is so much better and calmer, and now we can easily work round that. He can now walk pass at a short distance. In the early days, when he was being really reactive he snapped at everything.

But one of his quirks is that he resource guards really badly. If he took a packet from the kitchen and I tried to get it off him, I would risk getting bitten.

and another is that he has snapped/nipped when startled several times. Eg sleep startle he was woken up and whipped round and snapped sort of all in one action, (and nipped the person who woke him) then woke up properly.

We don't have small children. Our youngest is 18. We have had the dog for 4 years. He is not our first dog. He is 6.5 years old.
In that time we have been nipped quite a number of times, especially at the beginning when he was being reactive. But each time there was a 'reason' eg early on when he went nuts seeing another dog and I was controlling him, he nipped me. Now I know how to control him in a way so that that doesn't happen.
When my husband unwisely tried to take something he had, even though he was growling, he got nipped.
He is big, 30kgs. He is a guardian breed cross.

One time my daughter came into our room in the morning, our door was open and he was on the floor, and he lunged at her, she shut the door and nothing happened, but after that we have had pretty tight protocols in place round him, as I no longer trusted him.

Since then we have only had one incident, which was in the middle of the night, and so could be excused by sleep startle.

So these 'nipping' episodes are about once a year and in between he is fine, cuddly, cute, friendly. He is generally very people friendly etc. But since the lunge at my daughter, I will always have him on a lead if we have visitors with children.

I am calling them nips because I am aware that if a big dog wanted to bite, he could take a couple of fingers off, so what is happening is that he is snapping and nipping, rather than biting, but it breaks the skin and leaves a good bruise, so it is not insignificant. After the last one, which was the middle of the night one, I said that he was on his last chance.

On Monday night he was lying on the sofa. I came into the lounge, was speaking to dh, dog woke up and was lying watching me. He was upside down, I stroked his tummy and he wiggled and stretched. I sat down next to him and stroked his tummy again (this is normal, every evening, this is how he lies next to me on the sofa, the only difference is that I joined him instead of him joining me) I was sitting there talking to dh and stroking his tummy, and he suddenly went for my hand, I whipped my hand out of the way and he went again several times for my hand. I have a puncture wound, bruise and nasty scratch. So not real bite wounds, but not great.

I think we can't keep him. I think that someone is going to get hurt.
I will not rehome a biting dog, as I cannot guarantee that they will follow what we say about him, and they will think is is cute and fluffy and someone will get hurt.
I don't trust most rescues to be honest enough, they will do an assessment and he will seem fine.
He goes to kennels when we are away, and he is meek and sweet at kennels.
That means the only option is PTS which seems catastrophic compared to what is happening.

I am just so torn. He is lying on the floor next to me now looking like a sweetie pie.

Dh doesn't get it. He says it is my decision, which is also making me really angry as I feel I am being forced into being the bad guy.

What would you do?

I have name changed for this.

It’s Thursday. Surely your son can jump on a train tomorrow after uni, see the dog and all day goodbye and then take him in to the vet on Monday.

The fact that you take this dog out without a muzzle is really worrying. And he’s free in the house despite the aggression. He’s punctured skin repeatedly and you downplay it.

It’s sad; but this needs done. You have a dangerous dog.

I’m really sorry OP, that sounds very difficult.

Do vets PTS on the owner’s say-so? I am ignorant of the process!

@sadanddistressed you are doing the right thing. your dog will only know love this way. Sometimes love is very hard, and the best owners are the ones who make hard decisions.

Talking about it on a forum is not the same as relying on a forum.
Sometimes it is really helpful to have a place to talk about it which isn't RL

The fact that hes fine in kennels and its just sporadic episodes makes me think you arent very good at reading your dog. Maybe he should be with someone more experienced who doesnt have kids or many visitors.
Dont get me wrong, i couldnt handle a dog like that, but i couldnt put him to sleep just because im too incompetent to handle him.
i would rehome through a rescue and show them pictures of your injuries. Maybe give them an overview of when the incidents occurred.
A reputable rescue wouldnt rehome a biter to just anyone.

True. Having somewhere to go and talk things through is what MN is about. I guess I’ve got a bit jaded before on these threads as there are some dog haters on the forums who would rather see a dog PTS than an owner get professional advice and work on issues.

As you say, your dog is fine 90% of the time, then letting your DC set the timeline rather than the PTS ASAP posts is entirely manageable.

Put to sleep without delay. The behaviour will escalate. As an aside I hope you have attended hospital for any bites (they are not “just” puncture wounds, any bite that breaks the skin should be cleaned properly and antibiotics administered - every time. Get rid of the dog asap.

He is fine in kennels because he is not guarding anyone there.
If he were to stay there long enough for them to become his 'flock' then he would start guarding them too.
Love the way you say I am not good at reading my dog, while completely missing a key part about him being a guardian breed.

I would only talk about it in RL with people who are proper doggy people or with professionals.
I don't have many doggy people around, and there is no point in discussing it with non doggy people as they don't get it. Which makes it hard.
I am verbal processor, so I need to talk it through.
dh and I have done some of that, but he is working.

I will talk to DC tonight to see what they think and if they want to come home.
I really don't think a week here or there is going to make any difference. This is a longer term problem.

He sounds like an unhappy, anxious dog. In your position I would PTS. He won't know anything about it.

I've said this on another thread. I've had to have a rescue dog PTS because his aggression was escalating. It ended with him lunging at my face snapping and snarling. I don't know what caused it but I made the decision that day. I couldn't allow him to harm another person. You have done your best, some dogs don't improve.

This is correct. Guardian dogs have to have a job otherwise they will find a job for themselves. They can be very tricky in a domestic setting

Mine doesn’t so much guard people or things but boy does he guard territory. I don’t take him to pubs, cafes, shops, on public transport because he will guard a table or a picnic bench or even a piece of pavement. Anywhere that he perceives we are occupying he thinks he needs to defend. He won’t lie next to us he’ll position himself a little way off facing out ready to bark and lunge. I just don’t put him in any situation that could trigger that behaviour from him. We can have a picnic outside in a quiet spot but I can’t go to an NT cafe or anything with him. He can never really relax outside his home. It’s such weird behaviour compared to what other dogs do but it does seem innate in him along with a bunch of other weird stuff that Mio owners recognise (digging dens in the garden, lying down refusing to move, scanning the horizon, looking for high points on walks)
I love him, I work around him and I don’t believe he is dangerous when managed (has never bitten) but I will never have another.

A reputable rescue wouldn't re-home a biter to anyone !

Indeed! A rescue are not able to rehome a dog with a known bite history. Ethically and legally it’s a ‘no’ Full stop

But let’s not let the facts get in the way of ignorant posters spouting complete bollocks eh?

Ffs. He needs to be pts. A dog owner was jailed today for a biting dog killing somebody.

Op

you are doing the right thing

you have also given him darn good life by the sounds of it too

dont be sad it’s over be glad it happened in the first place

I once had a dog who I didn’t trust and boy was it exhausting never being able to leave the children alone with him. I felt sheer relief when he was pts

A vet check yes, but the problem as I see it is that he has gone for people in many different situations, so it's unpredictable, and when he does react, he goes straight for a high level bite.

If he were reacting and snapping, or biting and not breaking the skin, it would be different. But this dog has no safety margin.

Not necessarily true. I work with a rescue in germany and we have rehomed many dogs successfully. Lots as sheep guard dogs. Or sometimes we get competent dog trainers who try to train with them and end up keeping them because if you can read the dog properly it is often completely manageable.
Doesnt fit into every living situation of course and it doesnt work with every dog, but each case has to be looked at individually and its best to do that with a good trainer.

Can you point me to the specific part of law on that? I know people who rehomed their dog via a rescue - as long as you are honest and transparent then AIUI the rescue can take the dog if it feels it can be addressed.

I actually agree with you here. My aunt and uncle rehomed their German shepherd who was a bit aggressive, think to an army environment.

The rescue’s legal duty: Animal Welfare Act 2006
Rescues must protect both:

• The dog’s welfare
• Public safety

So they must carry out a reasonable behavioural assessment and match appropriately. If they knowingly place a dangerous dog in an unsuitable home, they risk:

• Negligence claims
• Being sued for misrepresentation
• Potential RSPCA or local authority action

Its not technically against the law, but it is under the above constraints. Most rescues use the ‘we can’t legally’ line as they are not prepared to open themselves up to the above
Therefore in practise, the vast majority of rescues will not place a dog with a bite history and will describe it in the shorthand way I did above

and my biggest concern with my dog is that he will pass any assessment with flying colours except my personal testimony, which could potentially be dismissed as - she didn't know how to handle a dog - as some on here have done.

Because this biting is related to him guarding and controlling, and initially in any setting where he has not yet bonded with the people, he is not going to guard them.

And as I have tried to say (although been misunderstood at times) he PRESENTS as a big friendly cuddly teddy bear.
He is lovely when you meet him, everyone falls in love with him, very pretty and cute to look at too etc etc etc

People don't actually believe me when I say he has an aggressive side, they think I am making it up. Then a dog goes by and he starts barking at the window for example, and they are shocked that this lovely sweet friendly dog can sound so scary.

So I simply do not trust a rescue to re-home properly with him. And I will not put him through montsh of living in a kennel waiting to be re-homed.

@sadanddistressed my dog was lovely 90% of the time. Providing he was getting his own way. Had he been a human, he would have been described as domineering or controlling. If he didn't want to do something he would just stand, stare at me and growl aggressively. He progressed to then snapping if I wanted to take him out for a walk and he didn't want to go for example. I don't know why he was like it, the vet thought that he had developed behavioural issues in his previous home which the owner had tolerated.
I came to the conclusion after the last, quite frankly, horrific way he behaved that I couldn't allow him to harm another person. If he had been the 90% all the time he would have been the perfect dog, but the 10% was too unpredictable.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. Sometimes it's the best and only way.
And I've had other rescue dogs from the RSPCA and not had these issues, I know it wasn't me.

OP, I've been where you are. A rescue dog (our first rescue, not our first dog) whose behaviour escalated in a very similar way. Ultimately, he bit for no apparent reason and held on. He bit both of us, more than once.

We had tried everything (training until we were blue in the face), but the bites were utterly unpredictable.

The vet agreed that we had no other option. It still brings us to tears - but you have to protect yourselves and others.

Do feel free to DM me.