Is this the end of the road for our dog (biting)

[sadanddistressed]

We have a dog. 90% of the time he is a big teddy bear, lovely, etc etc.
But he is a rescue and he has a lot of quirks.
We are happy to live around most his quirks, eg he is a terrible food thief.
He barks out of the front window, so that door is closed during the day.
We have done loads and loads of training for some of his quirks, eg he was very reactive to other dogs. He still is up to a point. When out walking I would never walk up to another dog on a path and be able to pass, we always head off to the side, do a circle, take a turning etc, but he is so much better and calmer, and now we can easily work round that. He can now walk pass at a short distance. In the early days, when he was being really reactive he snapped at everything.

But one of his quirks is that he resource guards really badly. If he took a packet from the kitchen and I tried to get it off him, I would risk getting bitten.

and another is that he has snapped/nipped when startled several times. Eg sleep startle he was woken up and whipped round and snapped sort of all in one action, (and nipped the person who woke him) then woke up properly.

We don't have small children. Our youngest is 18. We have had the dog for 4 years. He is not our first dog. He is 6.5 years old.
In that time we have been nipped quite a number of times, especially at the beginning when he was being reactive. But each time there was a 'reason' eg early on when he went nuts seeing another dog and I was controlling him, he nipped me. Now I know how to control him in a way so that that doesn't happen.
When my husband unwisely tried to take something he had, even though he was growling, he got nipped.
He is big, 30kgs. He is a guardian breed cross.

One time my daughter came into our room in the morning, our door was open and he was on the floor, and he lunged at her, she shut the door and nothing happened, but after that we have had pretty tight protocols in place round him, as I no longer trusted him.

Since then we have only had one incident, which was in the middle of the night, and so could be excused by sleep startle.

So these 'nipping' episodes are about once a year and in between he is fine, cuddly, cute, friendly. He is generally very people friendly etc. But since the lunge at my daughter, I will always have him on a lead if we have visitors with children.

I am calling them nips because I am aware that if a big dog wanted to bite, he could take a couple of fingers off, so what is happening is that he is snapping and nipping, rather than biting, but it breaks the skin and leaves a good bruise, so it is not insignificant. After the last one, which was the middle of the night one, I said that he was on his last chance.

On Monday night he was lying on the sofa. I came into the lounge, was speaking to dh, dog woke up and was lying watching me. He was upside down, I stroked his tummy and he wiggled and stretched. I sat down next to him and stroked his tummy again (this is normal, every evening, this is how he lies next to me on the sofa, the only difference is that I joined him instead of him joining me) I was sitting there talking to dh and stroking his tummy, and he suddenly went for my hand, I whipped my hand out of the way and he went again several times for my hand. I have a puncture wound, bruise and nasty scratch. So not real bite wounds, but not great.

I think we can't keep him. I think that someone is going to get hurt.
I will not rehome a biting dog, as I cannot guarantee that they will follow what we say about him, and they will think is is cute and fluffy and someone will get hurt.
I don't trust most rescues to be honest enough, they will do an assessment and he will seem fine.
He goes to kennels when we are away, and he is meek and sweet at kennels.
That means the only option is PTS which seems catastrophic compared to what is happening.

I am just so torn. He is lying on the floor next to me now looking like a sweetie pie.

Dh doesn't get it. He says it is my decision, which is also making me really angry as I feel I am being forced into being the bad guy.

What would you do?

I have name changed for this.

They’re social animals bred to bond and live with livestock and other dogs. After being brought up in a house with a family this is probably the cruelest thing you could do to him

I think PTS is the correct choice here.

I completely agree with this.
Using the word 'nip' minimalizes the fact that he is biting.
A pp mentions reactive dogs are usually in pain , i have many years working with dogs and i don't agree with this, most dogs are absolutely fine but a minority aren't and can't be trusted no matter what .
At 30kg as you are aware he could do some damage ,he is showing unprovoked aggression to you and your family.
Morally you cannot re-home him so you should pts .

Yeah my vet told me mine wasn’t in pain. Only she was. A lot of pain! If I had a £1 for every time I’ve heard this scenario I’d be very rich!
As I say pretty much every reactive dog I’ve ever come across has a pain issue somewhere. If the vet is saying nothings wrong then odds are they are actually saying is they can’t find the pain. Not that the dog isn’t in pain.
You need to advocate for your dog and keep trying to find it. See a physio, and get a second opinion.
80% of dogs over the age of 8 have clear signs of arthritis. 20% as young as a year old do. Dogs as a species are generally very stoic and don’t show signs until they can’t hide it anymore. Please get a second opinion

But in this case he isn’t.

Dogs are notoriously difficult to assess for pain. A course of pain meds to assess change in behaviour sometimes shows something but if the behaviour problem is so sporadic then that won’t work. And yes, you could set the dog up with a resource guarding incident (ABSOLUTELY DO NOT DO THIS) but if he’s both in pain and a resource guarded, then that will show precisely nothing.
Sadly, I don’t think you can trust him and his bites -yes they are bites. Not nipping.Bites.
Well they are getting worse too. Unprovoked and with a puncture wound? Clear escalation despite there being no discernible trigger. It doesn’t sound like you have much choice here op, I’m so sorry you are in this position

OP, you’re not the bad guy.

I am astounded that your DH has watched his daughter and wife get bitten and hasn’t insisted that the dog be removed from the home.

Don’t beat yourself up OP. A rescue and guardian cross - you have been committed and worked hard to give him a great life.

Having a dog is meant to be fun and enjoyable, not living in fear of the next incident. With the prospect of someone getting badly hurt.

Thank you all , you have confirmed what I already know.

Just to be clear, I am not trying to minimalise by saying snap/nip etc instead of bite, I am trying to described behaviour. I am well aware that he is potentially dangerous and that is why I am asking the question.
Also, when I say he is gentle and also unpredictable, what I was trying to convey is that it is not like he is an anxious, highly strung, scared of people and reacts to his own shadow type of dog.
If there are no other dogs around, he goes for weeks/months appearing to be a big, shaggy, friendly, calm teddy bear. It doesn't help that he is really pretty so people always go Aaah isn't he lovely when they see him.
And at the same time I am always aware that he has the potential to bite, so I am mangaing his interactions. But for weeks he is chill and laid back.
That is what makes it so hard.

Honestly, if he is in pain, and that is causing it, then I still don't feel that he is safe.

I have a 30 kilo dog, retriever not guardian breed, and the idea of a dog that size resource guarding would make me nervous.

That said, you've said you don't like the idea of him being permanently on medication, but if the alternative is PTS, wouldn't it be worth a try? My sister's anxious/reactive dog has completely changed on dog prozac.

Adding that if you think pts is the only option you'd be comfortable with, I don't think you should feel bad. It sounds like you've done everything to give him a great life, which is what matters.

"When my husband unwisely tried to take something he had, even though he was growling, he got nipped."

If a dog is growling you don't keep trying to take the item. Have you seen a behaviourist about the resource guarding at all?

When you rehomed him, how much did the rescue tell you about him and his quirks? Was there any indication of the snapping/nipping/biting? I'm just trying to understand if this is behaviour that has happened since you have had him. Have you spoken to the rescue about him?

You have (correctly) already made up your mind. You have argued against people suggesting various issues (as though you had not thought of these already ...) So in your mind you have made the decision - your husband will not validate it, so if we can help you go through this time, then we are here for you. It is absolutely obvious that you have lost every bit of trust you ever had for the dog, and there is no way you can have an animal of that size living in your home if you have lost your trust. It is the best thing for you and your family. And shame on your husband for being too cowardly to help make the decision.

The sleep startle can be common in rescue dogs - have you asked the vet for help on this (possibly medication)?

Have you read up on dog consent? This is worth reading: fbdtas.com/guide-12-dog-speak

its about having absolute boundaries. I put our cocker to sleep for biting. He didn’t have many teeth left thank fuck but it was a non negotiable for me. He ended up doing it 4x in quick succession because we had to wait 3 weeks for a negative rabies test. We’re in France. I never put it up for discussion.

I’ve had a couple of similar issues recently once being bitten after disturbing him in bed where he seemed to be unaware of his reaction but more recently when he was laying awake on the sofa but I reached to get the remote control from near him and he bit my finger resulting in a tear - DH said immediately he needed to be put to sleep but after speaking to the vet I decided to give him one last chance but make some changes to protect myself. It’s 3 months now since the last bite and he no longer sleeps in my bed and on the sofa I make sure he stays in his area and don’t approach him with any quick movements. He has been on steroid and apoquel for feet licking so I really made an excuse that could have contributed to his change in behaviour but he really is on his last warning now and if he had been a bigger dog / we had children it would have been an immediate decision to PTS.

Check it’s nothing physical , we had a loving dog for a few years and suddenly become aggressive and turns out he had brain cancer . I ended up putting him to sleep as it was inoperable . It was a extremely hard decision

My rescue dog took a dislike to my youngest son and we had to ban the dog from the sofa.It seemed to be territory which he wanted to defend and my ds was never the dogs favourite.The biting incidents when the dog is wakened seems easily understood but are much more dangerous if he's on a sofa.
They're all different but my dog improved greatly when we shared responsibility for him across all family members ie: we fed and walked him on a rota basis, otherwise he seemed to hold the children in v poor regard .
Good luck, it's a tough decision.Ive kept dogs all my life and I'm still learning from my rescue.

Going from your description OP I think that careful management may be an option, but that could be a dramatic change to your way of living, and I think you will be tempted to not employ it because 99% of the time your dog is ok...and that will lull you into a false sense of security, and a bite will happen again.

So, you could have rules: No access to sofas, absolutely no handling of dog when he is resting, no ifs, no buts. At night time or when you have visitors, dog sleeps in crate, or a very secure room (and that means nobody goes in..no kids who are intrigued and want to say hello to him, you would have to be on absolute guard for this, locked doors etc ) And you would have to rigorously employ these and and any other relevant mechanisms...because 0.1 % risk is 0.1% risk too much.

But it is possible I think from your description. But you would have to assess if it is reasonable and actionable in your circumstances, and that may not be the case.

You have a couple of positives; he has improved under your watch, you have a realistic care scenario for him when you are away (often the big issue as people can feel trapped at home all the time if they don't see a safe alternative for the dog, but you seem to have that) .

For the resource guarding there are options here ..swapping for higher value treats, but the positive association training needs to take place under sub-threshold responses rather than high arousal situations, and you should probably work with a good behaviourist to make safe progress here.

Would he be safe if everyone just didn't touch him unnecessarily

But since the lunge at my daughter, I will always have him on a lead if we have visitors with children.

This is crazy and it’s why I avoid visiting houses of people with dogs. many are not honest about their dogs temperament or bite history.

So it is only children you bother to protect from your dog? Why?!

He has bitten adults and can bite adults again.

He should clearly be out of the way in another room when you have visitors of any age- or at least warn them of what he’s like and if they choose to take that risk of being around your unleashed dog that’s on them.

I'm a dog behaviourist and this sounds very likely to be pain. Most vets aren't actually that good at checking for pain - please see a veterinary behaviourist or pain specialist. It would be a tragedy to put him to sleep if he was suffering from a physical problem that could be easily treated. How else are dogs able to communicate pain to us?

This 100%

I can’t believe people are saying that you should give this dog another chance!

There’s a lot to unpack here but generally it’s all completely normal and (sorry if you don’t want to hear it…) but things like Sleep startle and taking things off of a dog that is giving you a clear warning are not failures of the dog, they’re failures of the human. And I agree with comments regarding checking for pain triggers first. But this bit is also quite stand out:

He is a guardian breed cross.
One time my daughter came into our room in the morning, our door was open and he was on the floor, and he lunged at her, she shut the door and nothing happened

What sort of guardian breed and where did he come from originally? (IE was he being used as a Guardian). In this scenario you have given him something to guard - you! In your room! You can’t blame him for doing the job he’s been bred, to do. Particularly if he is some sort of imported rescue from guardian stock that was descended from flock guardians and you’re now expecting to just be a pet. Is that the case?

I found an animal chiropractor - I didn’t know they existed I would consider this first