Is this the end of the road for our dog (biting)

[sadanddistressed]

We have a dog. 90% of the time he is a big teddy bear, lovely, etc etc.
But he is a rescue and he has a lot of quirks.
We are happy to live around most his quirks, eg he is a terrible food thief.
He barks out of the front window, so that door is closed during the day.
We have done loads and loads of training for some of his quirks, eg he was very reactive to other dogs. He still is up to a point. When out walking I would never walk up to another dog on a path and be able to pass, we always head off to the side, do a circle, take a turning etc, but he is so much better and calmer, and now we can easily work round that. He can now walk pass at a short distance. In the early days, when he was being really reactive he snapped at everything.

But one of his quirks is that he resource guards really badly. If he took a packet from the kitchen and I tried to get it off him, I would risk getting bitten.

and another is that he has snapped/nipped when startled several times. Eg sleep startle he was woken up and whipped round and snapped sort of all in one action, (and nipped the person who woke him) then woke up properly.

We don't have small children. Our youngest is 18. We have had the dog for 4 years. He is not our first dog. He is 6.5 years old.
In that time we have been nipped quite a number of times, especially at the beginning when he was being reactive. But each time there was a 'reason' eg early on when he went nuts seeing another dog and I was controlling him, he nipped me. Now I know how to control him in a way so that that doesn't happen.
When my husband unwisely tried to take something he had, even though he was growling, he got nipped.
He is big, 30kgs. He is a guardian breed cross.

One time my daughter came into our room in the morning, our door was open and he was on the floor, and he lunged at her, she shut the door and nothing happened, but after that we have had pretty tight protocols in place round him, as I no longer trusted him.

Since then we have only had one incident, which was in the middle of the night, and so could be excused by sleep startle.

So these 'nipping' episodes are about once a year and in between he is fine, cuddly, cute, friendly. He is generally very people friendly etc. But since the lunge at my daughter, I will always have him on a lead if we have visitors with children.

I am calling them nips because I am aware that if a big dog wanted to bite, he could take a couple of fingers off, so what is happening is that he is snapping and nipping, rather than biting, but it breaks the skin and leaves a good bruise, so it is not insignificant. After the last one, which was the middle of the night one, I said that he was on his last chance.

On Monday night he was lying on the sofa. I came into the lounge, was speaking to dh, dog woke up and was lying watching me. He was upside down, I stroked his tummy and he wiggled and stretched. I sat down next to him and stroked his tummy again (this is normal, every evening, this is how he lies next to me on the sofa, the only difference is that I joined him instead of him joining me) I was sitting there talking to dh and stroking his tummy, and he suddenly went for my hand, I whipped my hand out of the way and he went again several times for my hand. I have a puncture wound, bruise and nasty scratch. So not real bite wounds, but not great.

I think we can't keep him. I think that someone is going to get hurt.
I will not rehome a biting dog, as I cannot guarantee that they will follow what we say about him, and they will think is is cute and fluffy and someone will get hurt.
I don't trust most rescues to be honest enough, they will do an assessment and he will seem fine.
He goes to kennels when we are away, and he is meek and sweet at kennels.
That means the only option is PTS which seems catastrophic compared to what is happening.

I am just so torn. He is lying on the floor next to me now looking like a sweetie pie.

Dh doesn't get it. He says it is my decision, which is also making me really angry as I feel I am being forced into being the bad guy.

What would you do?

I have name changed for this.

SUCH a helpful post!
Im sure the poor woman feels much better well done 👍

I think we have similar dogs
Mine is also a rescue with flock guardian origins, 30kg fluffy and handsome
He has never bitten and he doesn’t resource guard as such (you can take stuff off him) but he is very territorial so we have to keep him away from barking at the door and shut him away from visitors and he can be reactive to selective triggers (unneutered male dogs, cats, motorbikes) to the extent that we could never get anyone else to walk him as he will bark and lunge alarmingly. He isn’t the easiest dog.
We got him from a local U.K. rescue and we did not know what we were getting into (he was just billed as medium mixed breed) but he’s our dog now and we love the fluffy idiot even though he is a massive PITA.

People are acting like it’s an easy decision to put down a dog you have loved and put a lot of care and effort into for years and it’s not. You still love them for all their faults. I don’t know what I would do.

I don’t regard my dog as completely safe and trustworthy and I do take a lot of precautions to manage him. But there again part of me feels that no dog is actually completely safe so it’s right to be cautious. I could never take him to a pub or the shops. No way in the world would I ever let him near small children even though nothing has ever happened but I don’t feel he is a danger to his own family or so uncontrollable that he should die.

I think in your place I would look into your dog being in pain first as it does sound a lot like you stroking him could have caused him pain somehow?

The incident where your DD walked into the bedroom I can see my dog doing that although not with immediate family. He has been wary and tense around male relatives and guests and I then removed him to prevent any incidents but he has accepted DDs boyfriend into the family with no issues.

I had a dog like that. He would sleep in my bedroom and be fiercely protective if one of my teen DC tried to enter. They learned not to. He was also fine with letting you near food you had given him, but snapped if you went near him when he had food he had 'stolen' or found outside. We learned to live with it (we had him from eight weeks old), as he never actually bit anyone. He got lymphoma when he was six, so we had him PTS as it was incurable. Not sure what caused his behaviour.

This is a dangerous dog.

He has repeated bites with no apparent trigger or warning.

Pain is not an excuse. A dog that gives no signals and goes straight to repeated bites with puncture wounds ( without growling / snapping / mouthing ) is still a dangerous dog.

PTS is the only real option here.

I agree with this, he's absolutely not safe.

I would recommend a referral to a canine osteopath as they are a lot better than vets.
Also consider a pain trial before making a final decision

No one but a proper vet, who has ruled out anything else, can make that diagnosis.

Our rescue had a dog come a few years ago who had suddenly attacked the resident child when it had entered a room the dog was in. Turned out the poor bastard had a tumour behind its eye, causing it immense pain as well as poor vision. They just thought it was old and going blind and had no idea the agony the dog was in.

We had the dog assessed, the tumour removed as well as the eye, and placed the dog in a new home. That was over four years ago. The dog has never bitten or shown any aggression since. Situations like this happen far more than people realise. Dogs mask pain incredible well.

OPs dog has displayed all the classic signals of behavioural issues, and whilst this may turn out to be nothing it’s OPs duty as a responsible dog owner, who loves her dog, to make sure there’s nothing else going on. Happy, pain-free animals do not just suddenly turn on their humans. And automatically jumping to the assumption the dog must be PTS and is unsafe shows limited knowledge of how dogs operate.

That's a very different situation. A stable dog who has changed.

OP's dog has a long - standing pattern.

What would concern me most is the lack of warning. He’s not growling or snarling, giving you any indication that he’s unhappy. He just bites. That’s really dangerous, unpredictable behaviour.

Are there other warning signs? Whale eye, licking, body tension…

I agree with PP that he’s doing what he was bred to do - Resource guarding. At the very least, you need to remove all toys and food bowls. Don’t allow him on the sofa or in your bedroom. Leave him in his crate whenever you have guests. Don’t approach him when he’s sleeping or even resting.

With careful management, you can probably control the problem but I don’t think you’re ever going to properly resolve it without professional help.

@LameBorzoi not really. OPs dog has never gone for her like that before - it’s always been triggered (daughter entering the room and disturbing him, resource guarding etc). Going from content to be fussed to attacking is unusual and a new behaviour. Unless OP missed all the classic signs - which given she seems to know her dogs triggers, I highly doubt, it warrants a vet check.

And that dog did have previous behavioural issues, including guarding. The previous behaviours were and are just irrelevant because the point stands it was a new, unpredicted, reaction. Same as OP

Do you at least have him muzzled when you’re outside with him? Or are you relying on being able to control him and hoping no one ever approaches him (because you cannot control kids running up to your dog, even if they aren’t meant to and should behave better, they’re kids and they don’t always).

What if next time it’s someone’s face, he could blind them with a ‘nip’. PTS.

It’s absolutely fine if you decide you can no longer deal with him - living with a dog with that level of issues is hard going and not what people are really signing up for when they get a dog.

If you decide to have him PTS, there are absolutely much worse things that can happen to a dog than going to sleep (as far as they know) with you there.

If you want to carry on - I second or fifth or whatever we’re up to now 😂 that you need a veterinary behaviourist or a vet with a behavioural specialty, someone who can prescribe as well as help you with a training an management plan. Because yes you probably do want a pain trial and the potential of behavioural medication.

Longterm medication isn’t the same as the stuff he gets for cars, one of mine gets trazadone for vet visits and fluoxetine daily - the trazadone does make him slightly sedated and dopey, the fluoxetine doesn’t do that at all, he’s perfectly normal just slightly less anxious.

You’ll need to manage him a lot better though - a dog that sleep startles shouldn’t be accessible by accident when they’re sleeping, with that and resource guarding couches are a really bad idea, also just fyi… being on their backs and exposing their stomach can actually be a warning that they’re unhappy and they want you to back off.

You'll also need your husband on board because he can’t be doing stuff like ignoring growls and forcing him to drop things.

As if the dog is suitable as a pet in a normal family home so long as no one ever takes anything from him, touches him unnecessarily or startles him 🤔That's not a pet!

I don’t care if she feels better or not! My intention was certainly NOT to make her feel better for putting others at risk.

The very important point I was making was that while she’s twiddling her thumbs about all this and the dog is still there she needs to protect/warn ALL visitors.

And might I add anyone they come into contact with outside on walks needs to be protected too, so hope the dog is always on leash and/or muzzled preferably when outside.

There's honestly no need to be so aggressive. OP is clearly taking this seriously.

Again, you sound like an absolute delight.
I bet all your friends go to you for advice 😆

I simply stated she needs to be protecting all visitors and I stand by that. It was not “aggressive” at all. What was aggressive about saying that??

That said you can call it aggressive and I won’t go round in circles over my tone as it’s neither here nor there.

While you’re trying to police my tone you haven’t even engaged with the main point I was making about protecting visitors.

Ah of course the sarcasm has popped out in an effort to deflect from my points that it’s massively important she protects ALL visitors and outsiders from her dog .

You talk about my post not being helpful what are your posts to me actually adding to the discussion?

Exactly, it’s ridiculous. I can only hope all visitors are warned before they arrive.

I would put to sleep. Fuck me or my loved ones getting bitten. Humans trump dogs, always

My posts aren’t helping her at all, I just felt like sticking up for her when I read YOUR very blunt and unhelpful ‘advice’. Put it this way I doubt she rushed out this morning to purchase a muzzle after hearing what you had to say

My first thought was pain. I'd go back to the vet and ask for a longterm course of pain meds (6 months) so if it is pain, he's got time to learn what painfree feels like and to be confident that things aren't going to hurt, and you've got time to assess whether there are any changes to his behaviour. If you don't see changes during that time, then I'd seriously think about PTS.

@Ihavelostthegame and when this biting dog savages a child what then? ‘Oh poor thing, was probably in pain’

This dog had a long history of biting and unpredictable behaviour. People like you who excuse this - or try to , and that’s exactly what you’re doing - need to give their heads a wobble

Yeah I’ll never understand why so many people try to defend and minimise such behaviour from dogs, and the whole ‘nip’ thing… for goodness sake, call it what it is- a bite!