Is this the end of the road for our dog (biting)

[sadanddistressed]

We have a dog. 90% of the time he is a big teddy bear, lovely, etc etc.
But he is a rescue and he has a lot of quirks.
We are happy to live around most his quirks, eg he is a terrible food thief.
He barks out of the front window, so that door is closed during the day.
We have done loads and loads of training for some of his quirks, eg he was very reactive to other dogs. He still is up to a point. When out walking I would never walk up to another dog on a path and be able to pass, we always head off to the side, do a circle, take a turning etc, but he is so much better and calmer, and now we can easily work round that. He can now walk pass at a short distance. In the early days, when he was being really reactive he snapped at everything.

But one of his quirks is that he resource guards really badly. If he took a packet from the kitchen and I tried to get it off him, I would risk getting bitten.

and another is that he has snapped/nipped when startled several times. Eg sleep startle he was woken up and whipped round and snapped sort of all in one action, (and nipped the person who woke him) then woke up properly.

We don't have small children. Our youngest is 18. We have had the dog for 4 years. He is not our first dog. He is 6.5 years old.
In that time we have been nipped quite a number of times, especially at the beginning when he was being reactive. But each time there was a 'reason' eg early on when he went nuts seeing another dog and I was controlling him, he nipped me. Now I know how to control him in a way so that that doesn't happen.
When my husband unwisely tried to take something he had, even though he was growling, he got nipped.
He is big, 30kgs. He is a guardian breed cross.

One time my daughter came into our room in the morning, our door was open and he was on the floor, and he lunged at her, she shut the door and nothing happened, but after that we have had pretty tight protocols in place round him, as I no longer trusted him.

Since then we have only had one incident, which was in the middle of the night, and so could be excused by sleep startle.

So these 'nipping' episodes are about once a year and in between he is fine, cuddly, cute, friendly. He is generally very people friendly etc. But since the lunge at my daughter, I will always have him on a lead if we have visitors with children.

I am calling them nips because I am aware that if a big dog wanted to bite, he could take a couple of fingers off, so what is happening is that he is snapping and nipping, rather than biting, but it breaks the skin and leaves a good bruise, so it is not insignificant. After the last one, which was the middle of the night one, I said that he was on his last chance.

On Monday night he was lying on the sofa. I came into the lounge, was speaking to dh, dog woke up and was lying watching me. He was upside down, I stroked his tummy and he wiggled and stretched. I sat down next to him and stroked his tummy again (this is normal, every evening, this is how he lies next to me on the sofa, the only difference is that I joined him instead of him joining me) I was sitting there talking to dh and stroking his tummy, and he suddenly went for my hand, I whipped my hand out of the way and he went again several times for my hand. I have a puncture wound, bruise and nasty scratch. So not real bite wounds, but not great.

I think we can't keep him. I think that someone is going to get hurt.
I will not rehome a biting dog, as I cannot guarantee that they will follow what we say about him, and they will think is is cute and fluffy and someone will get hurt.
I don't trust most rescues to be honest enough, they will do an assessment and he will seem fine.
He goes to kennels when we are away, and he is meek and sweet at kennels.
That means the only option is PTS which seems catastrophic compared to what is happening.

I am just so torn. He is lying on the floor next to me now looking like a sweetie pie.

Dh doesn't get it. He says it is my decision, which is also making me really angry as I feel I am being forced into being the bad guy.

What would you do?

I have name changed for this.

I am glad we agree your posts aren’t helping her at all.

Instead of “sticking up” for the OP who basically came asking for advice I preferred to focus my response on considering the safety of visitors, instead of making snarky sarky comments to others.

Some people respond to straight talking advice, some don’t! Either way I was making important and reasonable points that I stand by. That’s what MN is for.

The fact is you would rather focus on my advice being too blunt than discuss the risk this dog poses to everyone is very telling. I will leave it there with you since you’re determined to deflect from the actual points I was making. And once again you’re not actually adding anything to the discussion on what Op should actually do.

PP is right though. He is a danger to everyone it seems.

You say I’m ‘snarky’ and ‘sarky’ but at l wanted to stand up for the poor lady and that came from
a good place whether you think so or otherwise. You’re being deliberately mean and hiding behind the guise of safety and straight talking advice, I don’t buy it for a second. You could have made exactly the same point without being so unpleasant. Crikey talk about kicking someone when they’re down!! Anyway have a nice day and watch your fibre intake ✌🏻

I couldn’t live in a house where if anyone accidentally disturbed the dog they’d be attacked. Why would you put your family at risk like this? I would put my kids first OP.

You have been unpleasant yourself with your sarcasm and hyperfocus on how I phrased something and your refusal to actually engage with the substance of what I was saying.

It really wasn’t “mean” giving the danger I was highlighting. It was honest and to the point. Others have agreed with me too.

I hope Op takes note for the sake of all her visitors.

What is the point after writing posts like that ending this with have a nice day and referencing my fibre intake? It sounds very fake and bizarre.

Exactly! So dangerous.

And you’ll get people here continuing to make excuses after it bites a stranger/visitor when it’s clearly avoidable if they take action now.

I’d engage a professional, try meds, lots of exercise and go from there. I’ve lived with a biter.
Guardian breeds are always on duty, they aren’t really pet baby dogs. They need jobs. Don’t get another one- not a criticism- but they’re lovely looking dogs who go into normal homes and shouldn’t.

He could be in pain there’s no way of knowing without a lot of expensive tests and it probably wouldn’t be curable. I would suspect some sort of growth internally.
Unfortunately I don’t think you have any choice and it’s PTS.
You’ve tried your best, fitted your life around him.

@DogsandFlowers

Anyway have a nice day and watch your fibre intake ✌🏻“

so weird

I would pts. He isn't just reacting to scares or guarding food anymore, he's completely unpredictable. Whether that is down to a medical issue like a brain tumour or just an unstable temperament, you cannot trust him and one of you is going to get hurt. No one can say you haven't tried. Have the vet out and pts at home where he is relaxed and comfortable.

So weird indeed and it’s partly why I won’t be engaging with that poster further.

He has to go, by whatever means you decide.

Vet nurse of 45 years here.

What about making him wear a 'Baskerville' muzzle all the time? I used to have an EBT and step kids. The boy used to tease her and she growled at him once so I simply fitted her with a Baskerville the whole time they were near each other.

They can drink and vomit through it. You take it off for feeding and put it back on immediately.

It's the option I would go to before euthanasia.

There is a way of telling. You give them analgesics to see if it modifies their behaviour.

We owned a guardian giant breed dog. Had him from a puppy. He had to be handled and treated in completely a different way than our other pet dogs. Yes he did resource guard. It was pointless attempting to take something away from him if he had it as it would escalate his guarding. Instead we would swap the item he had taken for something of higher value like a small piece of cheese. He was always on duty. Could never be outside after dusk on his own as he refused to come indoors and would bark for hours. So we learnt that he had to be kept indoors after his tea and then have a long walk for a wee before bedtime. He would then sleep round til morning on his own in the kitchen. We are farmers so we could accommodate all this. He was definitely not a pet. He couldn’t be treated as a pet and didn’t want to be although he was affectionate. He was more a colleague

it sounds as if this dog has crossed the line and needs to be pts

We all try to excuse things op but read back your posts, he’s such a risk and it’s no life for him to have to be watched like a hawk, not trusted and actually god knows what’s going on in his head. I’m so sorry

Thank you for all your comments.
I cannot respond to all, but just to say a few things.
Everyone entering the house is warned about the dog, mostly he says hello and then retreats to his bed, or we send him to his bed so he is out of the way.
He is on a lead with kids because kids don't always do as they are told funnily enough, so we have to be extra sure that we are close to him. (we rarely have kids coming to the house anyway)
He is always walked on a lead because he is reactive to other dogs.

We put a lot of protocols that people have mentioned in place after he lunged at my dd. We do have strict rules around him, at home and out, and he has very firm boundaries. He is not allowed on beds at all. Those protocols have meant that we have kept going for a long time longer than I think we would have done otherwise. But there isn't much more we can do behaviourally really in a family home.

While we will do a vet check, I honestly think this is escalation of previous behaviours, we do know his history, he has been a house pet since he was 3 months old. We met him in his previous home, and they were very honest, but most of what they struggled with was around a big bouncy dog in a small home and they were not walking him at all (because he was reactive to other dogs) and so he was like a coiled spring. Most of the behaviours they described disappeared once he was properly exercised and had firm boundaries in place. The biting has crept up on us, starting with resource guarding, and sleep startle etc.

dh and I sat down and had a long talk last night. He said he was in shock after Monday and has now had time to think, we both feel that Monday crossed a line, for 2 reasons, one was that it was so unexpected, and no particular reason, and the other was that he didn't do one snap to say 'get away' but went for my hand several times, and held on (which I had forgotten until he said it).
We both think he can't stay, he is not safe.
We now need to think of a timeline, do we wait for my older ds who is closest to the dog, to come home from uni to say goodbye or not.

and @Cupua your posts were unecessary.

I agree you’ve made the right decision. Guardian dogs have to have a job. If this is his third home and you’ve done all you can you need to keep yourself and others safe

You've made the right decision OP. Why not ask your DS what he wants to do?

Honestly op it's the best decision, to be able to decide when and where is helpful in dealing with emotions.

Personally I wouldn't wait, but explain to your child why it needs to be done ASAP.

Do you think your DS is likely to try and change your mind? I would probably tell him what is happening in adavance, but not necessarily wait for him to come home and say goodbye.

I wouldn't wait. Let your son know that it needs to be done before another incident happens and someone is seriously hurt. Presumably he can whizz home by train/whatever if he does want to see him first, but I would go ahead as you've reached this difficult decision. Best of luck OP.

I wouldn’t wait. I’m sorry it’s crappy but it’s the right decision.

I would be led by your DC on timeline so they get the chance to say goodbye.

But I would also be the type of person who would talk it all through with the vet to get advice/support before making any decision rather than relying on a forum.

(FWIW I have a dog who has shown sleep startle, resource guarding and snapping at times. I really would recommend reading that Dog Training Advice and Support link I posted earlier if anyone else reading this thread wants help/support https://fbdtas.com/guide-12-dog-speak/does-your-dog-really-want-to-be-petted)

Well done for making a tough decision. Your dog has had the best life he could have under the circumstances and he won’t know anything about the end. Perhaps you could arrange it for Monday to give your son time to travel home for the weekend if he wants.