Crate training a puppy - so much conflicting advice

[VanGoSunflowers]

I have an 8 week old Lab puppy. He is honestly such a sweetheart. I have only had him a couple of days so it’s still very early. He’s getting toilet training already etc

The first night, the breeder told me to just put him in his crate at bedtime and go to bed and ignore him. I put him in and he got very distressed - not just a bit of whining but full on barking and howling. As he is still only a baby, I did take him out and slept with him on the sofa (I was in the room trying to sleep on the sofa anyway)

All I keep hearing is one side that says, he is just a baby, you need to build up gradually until he settles etc and the other side saying that I’m creating bad habits of letting him out when he is barking so now he knows how to ensure I let him out.

I personally think it’s too much to expect an 8 week old pup to sleep in a closed crate all night and wanted to build up to that gradually by getting him in and out during the day, rewarding the process etc and eventually he will get that is where he is supposed to relax and be calm. When doing this during the day, I lead him in with a treat, praise him for going in there, close the door and sit by him and then try and wait for at least ten seconds of calm and then praise him and let him out. Shall I keep
on doing this or do I now have a dog that will only settle if he sleeps with me?

The ‘let them cry it out advice’ I feel only works if it’s minor whining and not for too long but this was more than that when I took him out - he was clearly distressed! Plus, I have neighbours and need to get some sleep myself!

Thinking of for his next nap, wait until he is really tired and lure him in to his crate but then keep the door open and sort of ‘fuss’ him to sleep. Let him sleep there but with the door open maybe?

@VanGoSunflowers Definitely over the top about grass! They often love snacking on it – it's the salad bar! Young fresh grass is super tasty too.

I had just lovingly dug and planted a gorgeous new border in our garden when we got our girl and I was driven insane by her standing in it, looking at it, playing in it, sleeping in it etc and just had to let it go and accept that it was her border too now. Just be quietly vigilant and he will more than likely grow out of it. We have a gravel drive and I genuinely can't remember the last time my girl picked up a stone.

Our puppy eats the wrong things all day long. Stones from the drive, grass, unripe cherries the birds knock off a tree, leaves of a cherry plum, leaves of a devil’s ivy - both of which someone today told me are poisonous. 🙄

Glad it’s not just me! I won’t get too worked up about everything I see him chomping on in the garden in that case!

I think when people refer to crate training they are often referring to toilet training.
The crate is a way of reinforcing that out in the garden is the place to pee, inside is for sleeping. The problem I found was that without a crate my poodle tended to just pee everywhere ....he couldn't tell the difference between where he slept and where he peed as he was using the whole house. Cue a lot of white vinegar to mop up smells and after three weeks of no crate in day I reverted to crate training for this reason ! After that I just used it for naps and I had a nap schedule and was always next to him and then in same room.
I slept next to him with my hand in the crate all night for about three weeks from getting him. I never ever let him cry it out

My dog has no separation anxiety and sleeps downstairs in his bed no problem since a puppy of 18 weeks. Sometimes in new places he sleeps on my bed, which I adore
He is on my bed now. He sleeps on the sofa all the time
On the floor, in the hall

The crate was a transitional stage to toilet train and encourage naps rather as a cot helps the mother or father keep baby sleeping safely. But at five months we no longer used it at all.

Although when we travel I do use a travel crate, (he is a miniature poodle and I don't drive, so on the train or in a taxi) and he is very happy in that safe and cosy.

So I can imagine for some dogs s crate with door left open is their safe space forever.

But I really don't think you need one for long. Breeders and trainers are like nursery nurses or teachers...you are building an individual relationship with one dog.

My sister's lab never had a crate. She loved her dog bed though and it was her safe space...nice and big to stretch out in...don't underestimate how big a crate or bed should be.

It to me is exactly like parenting advice....some people are horrified at attachment parenting and some people horrified at controlled crying but I do think there is a middle way with puppies and children. There is no need really to 'train" such a young puppy, it's all about channelling their instincts which are to be curious, eat lots, be adventurous, sleep a lot, and not soil their sleeping area. And most importantly they want to please us and connect with us. They don't know what we want, only what they want...and hopefully the two coincide.

You don't have to train a child, it trains you!

Pupdate!
Two further nights in his crate with no whining although I am still sleeping next to him. He got in there last night by himself when he knew it was bed time. And he’s currently napping in there! I’m so pleased!!

How’s it going OP? Managed to get back to your own bed yet?

Thanks for asking @CoffeeBreak8
Not in my own bed yet 😂 still sleeping on sofa cushions next to his crate but still don’t hear a peep out of him and he sleeps 8 hours straight in there. It’s been nearly two weeks now so I might try moving away again soon (haven’t tried for a while, been prioritising us both getting enough sleep instead so for all I know, he might be totally fine 😂

Aww you sound like the most loveliest caring dog mum ever! Glad to hear you’re getting sleep 😴

I got as far as sleeping on the sofa last night! Still in the same room but much further away. I’ll be back
in bed before I know it 😂

Haha 😅 mind you with this weather/heat, the sofa might be cooler than sleeping upstairs (if anything like my house recently 🥵)

It absolutely is in my house! It’s a south facing garden and my bedroom is at the back! Noticeable difference in temperature when I go up there!

@BastardesEverywhereYou are doing some impressive mental acrobatics to try justify not getting your dogs used to an environment that they may have to be in at the vets one day! Let’s call a spade a spade, it’s laziness!
Our puppy loves his cage and if he didn’t have one, he would injure himself trying to get onto/off the sofa whilst we’re asleep! If we didn’t have a cage to quickly pop him in when the doorbell goes off, he would run outside like lightning when we open the front door and almost certainly get run over before we could grab him. If we didn’t have a cage he would likely try chewing the sideboard again whilst we’re asleep and would potentially get splinters in his gums and require a vet visit (ironically involving time in one of the Vet’s cages…).
If he didn’t have a cage, he would spend hours clawing at the living room doors, trying to get to us and would distress himself beyond measure.
The cage however, he was only unhappy in for probably 5 mins on his first 3 nights before falling asleep with his paws bent on his chest, snoring loudly………. I know which scenario I’d prefer.

@ButteredRadish
You do know that's just hype, right? You'll use any excuse to keep an animal in a cage and there is no valid reason why it needs to be done. It's laziness.
We've never crated any of our pups, but three had surgery at different times that necessitated staying at the vets in a cage. Two also travelled on a ferry where they had to be caged. Crating at home has absolutely no bearing on your dogs willingness to be caged at the vets.

Needing to crate your dog before you can answer the door is ridiculous! It is neither practical nor desirable. That is no way for an animal to live. It is not healthy for them physically or mentally.

None of your arguments hold up. None of them! We have a 15 month old pup. She is our ninth dog, or ninth uncrated puppy. From 8 weeks old she has had free access to two rooms. One of which has a large sideboard, a cupboard, wooden dining table, 4 wooden chairs. She has chewed nothing. Not a thing. She never whines or barks, doesn't go hysterical when the doorbell rings. We use puppy gates to keep her safe away from steep stairs and the front door. All our pups have toilet trained early and settled well at night.

If you are struggling with your dog as much as your post suggests then you need help. There is something very, very wrong in all of this. You need to contact a behaviourist as soon as you can.

My dog is 3 and has already experienced a cage at the vets, which she dealt with with zero issues. Saying a dog must be 'pre-trained' into accepting this is a lie.

For a social animal like a dog, a small locked cage is an undesirable environment. Claiming that you should treat your dog in this way, by locking them in a cage daily to get them used to this, just in case they ever have to spend a night or two locked up at the vets is frankly ludicrous.

However, for anyone that bought into the 'cages are actually good' propaganda, I imagine telling yourself this is comforting.

As for your suggestion that it's laziness to NOT lock your dog in a cage - 😂. Come on now. Mental acrobatics indeed 😂😂😂

This is such an emotive topic!
I absolutely agree that crates can be misused and they don’t suit all dogs nor indeed all owners.

There are a great many owners who aren’t lazy who crate and a great many who aren’t lazy that don’t.

Even though I have chosen to crate train, I also agree that the argument about getting them used to it in case of a vet visit doesn’t really hold up. I only put my puppy in a crate when it’s time for sleep - any other time he goes in there, the door is open and he can come and go as he chooses.

I have also ordered a tall (thanks for the recommendation @CoubousAndTourmalet ) puppy gate for the kitchen in case I need to keep him away from the front door for whatever reason

Although, at the moment, he is so excited to meet visitors at the door that I always carry him to the door with me so he can say hello 😂

The gate is more in case my son needs a breather (he can chill in the living room then while I entertain pupster in the kitchen) it backs straight on to the garden - my garden is basically a medium sized, grassed area and fenced so I can see him out there at all times and he can’t get in to too much mischief (unless you count him attacking my garden broom 😂)

I guess for me the logic was that if he is going to sleep for 18+ hours per day and he is fine with sleeping in a crate, for him it doesn’t matter where he is as long as he is comfortable and he gets let out as soon as he wakes up (I’m always in the room with him when he is asleep) it also means that eventually, I can do whatever bits I need around the house knowing he is sound asleep and safe (down side of being the only adult living in the house, I don’t have anyone to watch him while I do my stuff apart from the occasional visit from a friend) I have even puppy proofed the bathroom so he can be in there with me while I shower etc.

I have absolutely nothing against not crating though, of course! I can absolutely see that in a lot of circumstances it just isn’t necessary and if we were getting anywhere with crate training and he hated it, I would have to have a serious rethink and come up with alternative solutions that work for both of us.

Just because your dog was supposedly fine with being in a cage at the vets, doesn’t mean every dog is. Like I said, you’re doing some ridiculous mental twisting to justify your laziness and lack of actions to keep your dog safe - which is fine, that’s on you but also your own decision. Don’t come on here and criticise others for keeping their dog safe, just because you don’t.

As I've said before, I'm not against crating per se @VanGoSunflowers , as long as it is done correctly. But, sadly, in many cases, it is not. I hope that having a gate will work well for you and enable you to have more choice about when you do want to crate. It just makes things simpler if you're busy and can restrict pup to one room easily.

What did concern me here though, on this earlier post, was the idea that pup goes into crate as soon as the doorbell rings. As a person who has a guarding breed, I feel that doing this could put you on the slippery slope to having a dog that will not accept any visitors to your home. By conditioning a pup to understand that doorbell = into crate, it sends the message that people coming is a negative. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but we've always had free range pups that are welcoming of guests and will settle quietly without being confined.

I'd also be very concerned about the idea that pup is scratching at doors every time it is released from the crate, because I fee that will inevitably lead to being caged for longer and longer periods as time goes by.

I'm not a dog trainer, and maybe my words are harsh, but I will always advocate that free range, for those who are able to do it, is healthier and easier in the log run.

How does raising free range equate to not keeping a dog safe please? I think we need you to explain the logic behind this. I'm quite intrigued to know where I've been going wrong...

edited for typo.

You are being unnecessarily inflammatory here!

Maybe I am speaking out of turn but I’ve been on quite a few threads with @CoubousAndTourmalet since I had my puppy and she has been nothing but helpful and welcoming and it’s extremely clear to me how much she loves her dog and puts her safety above all else.

I’ve found so far that it’s been mainly a problem solving exercise that you may not consider until you’re faced with it. For example, I can’t go and do a food shop at the moment for obvious reasons so I had one delivered. I did consider putting puppy in a crate for the short amount of time it took me to offload and put away (obviously I can’t keep the door open and walk back and fourth) in the end, I realised I was being a bit dim (totally blaming th weather 😂) and worked out another way of doing it that didn’t need him in his crate and also he was safe. That’s a small example, I definitely don’t want the crate to be the go to every time because there are many ways around the problems that people advocating using them to solve. It’s just for sleep for us I think - and even then, some days he clearly doesn’t fancy it so I don’t push it. Although he’s lying in there happily atm as I have a fan pointed at it 😂

I will admit though, I think your arguments against crate training are compelling ones and it is making me think I can go easier and easier on it because if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work and there will be other options for me if that makes sense?

So many things you don’t realise may be difficult until you encounter them!

I’ve just realised you weren’t even speaking to @CoubousAndTourmalet - am definitely going to blame the fact that I am so very tired 😂

My point still stands about not being unnecessarily inflammatory though

No, @ButteredRadish seemingly won't engage with me, even though @BastardesEverywhere and I are of the same opinion, more or less.

Anyway, I totally get it about you feeling comfortable crating pup when you go to food shop, that is understandable. You'll learn as you go along what is the right balance for you and your boy, but thus far I think you are doing brilliantly!

The learning never stops and believe me there is a hell of a lot that I will do differently with my next pup.

Thank you I appreciate that so much.

I know some trainers advocate for every sleep and every nap in the crate until puppy learns that is where he sleeps but I’ll be blowed if I can’t have him lying on the sofa with me of an evening or (our current favourite) he comes and lies on the sun lounger with me in the evening when it’s cool outside 😍 and I may enjoy a glass of wine