Crate training a puppy - so much conflicting advice

[VanGoSunflowers]

I have an 8 week old Lab puppy. He is honestly such a sweetheart. I have only had him a couple of days so it’s still very early. He’s getting toilet training already etc

The first night, the breeder told me to just put him in his crate at bedtime and go to bed and ignore him. I put him in and he got very distressed - not just a bit of whining but full on barking and howling. As he is still only a baby, I did take him out and slept with him on the sofa (I was in the room trying to sleep on the sofa anyway)

All I keep hearing is one side that says, he is just a baby, you need to build up gradually until he settles etc and the other side saying that I’m creating bad habits of letting him out when he is barking so now he knows how to ensure I let him out.

I personally think it’s too much to expect an 8 week old pup to sleep in a closed crate all night and wanted to build up to that gradually by getting him in and out during the day, rewarding the process etc and eventually he will get that is where he is supposed to relax and be calm. When doing this during the day, I lead him in with a treat, praise him for going in there, close the door and sit by him and then try and wait for at least ten seconds of calm and then praise him and let him out. Shall I keep
on doing this or do I now have a dog that will only settle if he sleeps with me?

The ‘let them cry it out advice’ I feel only works if it’s minor whining and not for too long but this was more than that when I took him out - he was clearly distressed! Plus, I have neighbours and need to get some sleep myself!

Thinking of for his next nap, wait until he is really tired and lure him in to his crate but then keep the door open and sort of ‘fuss’ him to sleep. Let him sleep there but with the door open maybe?

Our pup was a cryer, and has always slept in a crate in the kitchen. We had a cot mattress that we put on the floor next to her crate and lay there until she fell asleep and then would creep to bed. If she woke up and cried we would go back down, go to the toilet and then repeat. A few weeks in we figured out it we put a blanket over her crate she didn’t cry at all and we could leave her all night.

It probably took about 3 months and now she has a crate with no door on it and sleeps all night (and some of the day) in there. She’s also super independent when left alone, and her crate is her safe cosy place if she needs it.

It was really hard work those first few months but definitely worth it now.

My thoughts exactly.

Over the years I've raised four perfectly well adjusted and well behaved dogs from small pups without ever using a cage crate. We just dog proofed and they had a dog basket as their safe space.

People get snippy about it because it's an animal welfare issue and cages are hugely over/mis used.

There are SO many people nowadays who get dogs and are told by xyz person they must get a cage. So they do. And then the dog ends up locked in said cage for hours on end, often alone in the utility room or hallway or whatever cutesy 'dog area' has been designated or decorated for them 🙄

Dogs want to be near their people and it's heartbreaking how so many are separated and mistreated whilst their owners get to put the acceptable-sounding reason of 'crating' on the poor treatment.

NOT you op. But many. Far too many, and plenty of those on MN.

@Gingercar you weren't being snippy at all, and I agree with you.

You’ll get so many different opinions on this! Other things people will suggest:

Letting him out at 2am for a wee.
Sleeping by the crate.
Putting the crate in your bedroom.
Having the door open for a few nights then shutting it again.
Binning the crate and using a bed.

..... and probably a couple of other more complex combinations of that.

All have worked for them.

What would I do? I'd use a crate every time.

Out for a wee at 10.30pm, make sure the room is dark (sheet over crate if necessary with lighter mornings), radio playing very low volume in background. Then I’d leave him to it and ignore any racket until I got up at 6am. But then I’m a tough old bitch!

None of my Lab puppies have yelled for more than a couple of nights. There’s been the odd accident but I’d rather clear that up in the morning than train a puppy to think I’ll come running every time it hollers in the night!

Well he’s gone in there to sleep now 🤷‍♀️ crate door open of course so he obviously doesn’t hate it in there. The more I think about it, the more I think a pen around the crate is a good idea

But you can put your point of view across without the eye rolls or making out that I am being deliberately cruel. I’m a first time dog owner and just trying to do what’s best for both of us and there is so much conflicting advice around that it’s hard to know what to do for the best. You could have just explained what you have done with your dog, where they sleep, how you keep them safe etc without making out that I am wanting to deliberately stress my dog out. Of course I don’t want that.

IMO sometimes they’re necessary, sometimes not needed. Should be used for training whilst they’re chewing etc. They shouldn’t be locked in there hours on end and certainly not whilst someone goes to work. Mine is currently fast asleep, in her bed in the pen. There’s an area with a pad and an area with her bowls. There also toys and her licky mat tied to the pen- it’s an XL pen. Mostly the door is open, but if I need to pop out I know she’s safe. Apart from one time when I forgot! and she was shaking in the hallway when I got back. She’s snoring away, when she wakes up I’ll give her lots of attention and take a break.

There’s only so much dog proofing you can do- mine would have ripped down my curtains today - and I was in the same room just not looking. I’m not taking her to bed as she will just wake up and squat on the bed. She’s not crying when she needs to go, just going at the moment. Drinking lots as she has kibble. She will be loved her whole life and have free run once she isn’t peeing all over the place.

Pups can change a lot between 8 and 11 weeks, OP so I’d persevere if I were you. Labs are the absolute best dogs, but mine was a chewer, jumper and a counter surfer. He could open cupboards and doors easily. After a few months we no longer needed his crate and he cried when we took it down. I bought him a fabric crate for another while - door forever open. Then he got one of many orthopaedic dog beds which he loved.

Just do this. Schedule his naps during the day also close the door and open it again with the puppy in it feed his bed so few teats here and there he will start to see it as his bed, you can still have him on the sofa beside you. I did the above with my dog I never let him cry maybe a little whine if I was out of earshot, he never objects to his crate.

I’m going to rearrange some furniture and put a pen in the living room attached to his crate and keep the door open. We are in a really good routine already, he’s doing so well with toilet training and napping at the right times etc.
Seems like this will be a good fix. It arrives tomorrow. I will have him sleep on the sofa with me tonight I think, I don’t want to make him hate being in his crate - he seems to like it if the door is open! And then see how I get on with the pen tomorrow and a puppy pad put down.

I do appreciate all the advice and am now feeling a bit mean accusing other posters of being snippy. A new puppy can be overwhelming, especially for a first time dog owner and especially if you’re sleep deprived so I may be a little emotional

New puppies are like a slap in the face with a brick ! You will work it out hopefully the pen works we had 1 but our pup just tried to scale it 😀 you could try having the crate right next to you so you can "shush" him from the sofa.

They certainly are 😂
To be fair, I knew it would be difficult but it still doesn’t prepare you!

I had the crate right up at the sofa at one point, he could see me clearly. I tried shushing, reassuring, trying to distract with a ‘novel’ noise but it all just seemed to wind him up even more 🤷‍♀️

Lots of breeders recommend crates because the theory is it stops puppies potentially getting into harm (I.e chewing something they shouldn’t).

Personally, I dislike crates. I think too often crate training is not done properly and dogs suffer as a result. A puppy curled up near its human is far less likely to get into mischief (or even shit in their crate then roll in it - as someone’s puppy I know kept doing).

Do whatever works for you and your puppy - all puppies are indictable and what works for one won’t work for another. My boy could never have been crate trained but his sister - same litter, raised by me until 8 weeks and when given to my sister - loves her crate.

Thank you for this. It seems like they can be a useful tool, when used correctly and for the right dog.

My pup’s general temperament is actually very calm. He’s very cuddly but not anxious to be away from you - happy to explore and play and seems to be picking stuff up so quickly already

It’s horses for courses and I agree that there is loads of conflicting info around.

We managed perfectly well without a crate for our now two-year-old spaniel. She grew up in the house and around our possessions and so learned not to terrorise the curtains, table legs, sofas etc, because I taught her a firm ‘leave’ from day one and worked from home with her. Maybe she was just super easy, I don’t know, but I didn’t find a need for a crate at all as she had beds everywhere and during the day if she needed to be ‘contained’ it was in her comfy bed next to my desk. She learnt that bed meant bed, and I was, even in the depths of puppy blues, more than capable of teaching her that bed was best.

The conflicting info makes my head spin! And then you have the added complexity of trying to figure out whether to stick at something and persevere because that might be less confusing for them vs knowing when what you’re doing isn’t working and that you should try something else. I know consistency is key but what if you’re being consistent with something that doesn’t work 🤷‍♀️

You can tell I am an overthinker! I just really want to get this right but while remembering that he is part of my family, a pet and a companion and I’m not trying to train him to do anything complex like you would with a service dog. So I’m also trying to just enjoy him and have an element of ‘go with the flow’

I watched a YouTube video by a dog trainer today and the advice was that a puppy who is crying and howling in his crate doesn’t have enough structure and that they should be on a lead at all times when awake and you must be strict with filling every single waking minute of his early life with training and structure and this and that and, well I get what he is trying to say but I just want him and me to bond and try and do it in a way that we all have our sanity afterwards. And is it really necessary to be SO rigid about it when he is a family pet and not a service dog in training?
I get that routines will meal times, nap times, toilet training and play/training commands are useful and we’re getting that down really well but what about just letting him have a sniff around the garden or a cuddle or poking his nose through the fence to say hello to the neighbours sausage dog? Is it REALLY an issue if he chews on my old trainers I use for the garden or do I just accept he will grow out of it and that some things are bound to get damaged in the process? Should I be telling him not to jump up at me now so he doesn’t do it to people when he is older or can I train him out of that in a few months?

Agh, so many questions 😂

I have no idea if this is good advice. When our spaniel first came to us, I slept on the couch with the crate next to me. Every time she whined I’d poke my hand through and would stroke her to reassure her, this made the whining and barking stop. I honestly felt like I had a human baby/toddler again. After 3 nights on the couch she was able to sleep in her crate downstairs on her own.

I may try this this evening - thank you. In advance of the pen arriving. I have nothing to lose and it might work! Safe in the knowledge that if it’s still too much for him he can just sleep on the sofa with me tonight

@VanGoSunflowers Ha yes, I have definitely been consistent with things that have since proven to be dumb ideas!

It’s easy to say but try not to overthink it and enjoy him because this stage really doesn’t last long and he will be a big boy before you know it!

That trainer sounds mad. One of the first things we taught our girl was to be bored and not be doing things constantly, so that she got used to having down time and resting without interaction from me. Routine is good and puppies really thrive on it – and it’s helpful when you first have them to have a routine yourself, too – but he has to enjoy life too and so do you. Sniffing in the garden is vital, as is cuddling! Personally I don’t think a bit of old trainer chewing is a drama either, and I let my dog jump on me if she needs comfort – just not on other people. She definitely knows the difference. You have to do what feels right to you and what feels right for him.

I had a crate but took it down a few months ago. He never slept in it and wasn't really interested, whatever I did to build value in it. He slept in my bed with me from night two, as I couldn't bear to hear him cry, and he clearly wanted to be with me. He's slept so much better in the bed (and so have I) and has never fallen out. He is very much a velcro dog, and still wants to nap touching me if at all possible, but that's his breeding as much as his upbringing (he's half WCS and half Lab), and we don't have a busy household where he needs a safe, quiet, dark space.

I think crates are useful if: you have a busy house, e.g. young kids; your pup immediately likes the crate (ignore what the breeder says as the puppies will only have been in a crate with the rest of their litter, which is entirely different from being on their own for the first time); and you are happy to sleep with the crate for weeks if the pup is expected to sleep in it. Leave the door open unless you're training.

If, on the other hand, there's just you and pup; the pup doesn't like the crate, or isn't interested; and you have no allergies or other issues that prevent the dog from sleeping in the bedroom with you; then there's no real point to it. All the things that crates are meant to help with (chewing, housetraining, separation) are far better done without a crate. The only arguments I really buy are when there are kids that the dog needs to be able to get away from, and to prepare for overnight vet visits, but then it's being alone that's at least half the issue, and in any case the dog will quite likely be subdued or sedated.

I’d gently advise you to stop searching for answers online - half the ‘advice’ you will get is frankly dangerous and batshit and even good advice will not apply to every dog and situation - dogs are individuals and it is never a case of one size fits all

Enrol in some in person training asap. Where I work we offer puppy introduction sessions in your own home and video/phone advice for those enrolled in upcoming group classes. Maybe somewhere close to you offers similar

It sounds like you are going to approach this sensibly but if you would like create training guidance I would recommend dog training advice and support guide (on Facebook). IMO there are a number of good reasons to have a crate trained dog and whilst we rarely shut the door it is available to us on the occasions it may be prudent.

I agree with having a pen to surround the crate. There are plenty of other approaches but we choose that so that our dog could have a safe space as a puppy with access to her crate but so that we could approach the crate training separately meaning that it was always positive.

For the doubters, our dog has a choice of multiple beds, only one in a crate, and she'll move between them all as her mood takes her. But of course it isn't natural. None of the life that we give them is natural but something not being natural doesn't make it inherently bad and if we aren't able to make the entire environment puppy safe the occasional enclosure is far better than surgery or illness (often followed by enforced cage rest...).

Our puppy arrived from her breeder and within a couple of hours had pooed out a large piece of a washing up glove which was very lucky not to have caused her significant injury.

This is sensible advice thank you. If all fails with the crate and the pen I have ordered then he will come and sleep with me. I could rearrange my furniture and push my bed up against the wall to hopefully limit the chance of him falling or trying to jump out.
I do have a son, he is 7 but he is a very calm kid tbf and obviously not a toddler.

I guess I’m just thinking what do I want this to be? Why did I get a dog?
I want a companion, company for long walks, dog friendly holidays and pub beer garden buddy - I want him to be well mannered. Not just for me, but for the countless people I know that have already offered dog sitting help (and they’re more likely to want to do that if he’s well mannered) so I need not to stress over every little thing!

I saw one piece of advice, also from a dog trainer, that said to ONLY give affection and attention to your pup if they do something you want them to do. That just seems a little harsh to me.

I think as long as you are happy and your dog is happy that's all that matters really as long as you treat a dog like a dog they will go anywhere when you as a great companion, fwiw I don't think you have had "batshit advice " like a pp suggested just pet owners experience of having pups, our trainer said to us ignore the bad as much as possible and praise the good even if they are not doing anything a "good boy" is reaffirming behaviour you want.