How common, and socially acceptable, is it to breed from a pet dog in the UK?

[scam321]

I'm not trying to be controversial or goady - I'm asking this question out of curiosity and in good faith. I don't have a horse in this race as my girl is spayed (I also just wouldn't have the stomach for it). I'm not British and dog breeding is tightly regulated in my home country, so I'm very much coming at this from a naive outsider's perspective.

Since moving to the countryside (SW England) a few years ago, I have met several people who have had litters from their family pets - usually just the one. These dogs are loved and treated well, the breeding is done responsibly, new owners chosen carefully. My impression is that while these people like the extra cash, it's more of a bonus - they also see breeding as a rite of passage of sorts. While part of me still thinks, god, why would put your dog through that, I also can't criticise the way they've done it - at the end of the day, someone's gotta do it, and it might as well be them.

Previously - especially when I lived in a city - the narrative was always that "amateur" breeders were cruel, irresponsible, profiting off their dog's suffering, etc. Sadly I am well aware that breeders like this do exist and need to be stopped, but I suppose I've seen that there is another way and am no longer so black and white about it.

Nonetheless, this still seems to be a really controversial and divisive topic whenever it comes up - I have friends who are very, very anti. I'm struggling to understand what the broader sentiment is in the UK. Is it generally common and/or socially acceptable to have one litter from a family pet if it's done responsibly and lovingly? Or is it seen as deplorable?

Presumably the answer is somewhere in-between, or that there are different schools of thought.. I also assume there will be regional (country/city) differences and breed differences, but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions on this.

@coffeesaveslives I am….amused that you have ignored the rest of my post. Are you a breeder per chance?
But no, of course I don’t think that dogs should die out completely. But there should be far, far tighter regulations on who can breed and indeed own, a dog.

If I could make the rules? Breeders should have to have full vet checks and temperament tests by independent people before they breed and they should ensure that an in person homecheck is carried out to any prospective owner. That would get rid of 95% of breeders immediately.
Anyone who wants a dog should submit to said home check and then obtain a licence that proves they have the means and the knowledge to care for said dog for the next 15 years.

Owning a dog is a privilege, not a right.

I haven't ignored it, I just don't feel the need to reply to it - I've made my points multiple times on this thread already.

And no, not a breeder. Just a dog owner and someone who works with dogs.

OK, I've read everything now! @redboxer321 you'll be happy to know that I'm back ;)

@FancyBiscuitsLevel you guessed right - rural area with farming communities. Country sports are also a big thing here. Lots of people have working breeds that they do gundog training with and take out on shoots, but they are otherwise treated as pets - as a PP put it, they live with the family, sleep on the furniture, etc. etc. I would say most people probably see them as a family pet with the bonus of being able to take them out for a hobby rather than the other way round. In hindsight though, I probably should've specified this in my OP - it very much tends to be labs, spaniels, pointers, etc.

@coffeesaveslives yes, you have ignored the rest of my post. You stated that there were no “suitable rescue dogs in your area”. Did you never think of contacting a breed specific rescue? It sounds like you went to your local rescue and were refused, so you bought a dog instead, Rescues are in no way full of “lurchers and huskies” in fact, as someone heavily involved in rescue, I can’t remember the last time I came across one (other than breed specific rescues). My point was that there are many dogs, I’d go so far as to say the majority, in rescue, that are absolutely fine and perfectly safe to be rehomed. They deserve a chance and it’s an absolute tragedy that perfectly healthy and temperamentally sound dogs are being euthanised everyday whilst people continue to breed.
You also said you “didn’t feel good enough for a KC registered breeder” which is honestly worrying because they ask for literally nothing other than cash!
You also just now say you “work with dogs”. Right oh. Like you recommended further up thread, I will take that with a pinch of salt.

I'm not responding to your assumptions and personal attacks, but out of curiosity, I did just look at one of our local rescues.

They currently have five lurchers up for adoption, plus a bedlington/whippet that's just been adopted. Only one of them can live with children under 10, one with children 10+ and the rest say they're only suitable for children over 15. Not exactly family friendly options.

None of the other dogs up for re-homing can live with young children and one needs an adult-only home due to severe resource guarding. None can live with cats.

https://www.oaktreeanimals.org.uk/homing/adopting-an-animal/dogs.html

So, yeah, this may not be your experience but unfortunately, it is mine and many others. As for breed specific rescues, many won't re-home out of area as you need to be able to travel for visits and be nearby for home-checks.

@Holidaysrule
It's not true about KC registered breeders asking for nothing other than cash. At least not in our experience within our (numerically small) breed.

We have bought several puppies from KC assured breeders with small show kennels over the last 30 years. We've had home checks carried out and had to fill in long detailed questionnaires about our lifestyle and our past experience with dogs, as well as needing to provide written references from our vet. We are still in contact with the breeders of four of our past dogs, and in fact one of them helped us to find our current pup (because she herself had no litters planned at that time) and she gave us a reference for the breeder. We've been offered lifelong support for this puppy from both her breeder and the owners of the stud dog.

I don't understand all the reverse snobbery on here with regard to buying puppies from reputable breeders that are recommended by your breed club. It is really very much safer than buying a puppy from a pet breeder via a local ad.

I also own a rare breed, they don’t have a “specific breed rescue” like @PyreneanAubrie I was carefully vetted by the breeder to ensure I was providing a good home for the dog. I know the breed and knew what I was getting as he is a good example of the breed, I like the breed they suit me and my lifestyle and I offer a good loving home. If the breeder makes some money out of breeding puppies I’ve got no problem with that, he’s put a lot of time and effort into the puppies and he’s not breeding them hand over fist, one litter a year max if that, so I doubt he racking it in especially as the breed club clearly states on their website how much a puppy should sell for. I suspect any money “made” covers the daily cost of his other dogs, show ring fees, petrol and accommodation at shows and health tests vets bills etc. So if he does make some money breeding puppies best of luck to him in my book it doesn’t make him the equivalent of a war criminal.

Considering that there are many working and specialised dog breeds rotting in kennels, maybe we should look at pet dog breeding again.

I mean border collie, Spaniel and poo-x are working breeds while greyhound, lurcher, husky and mastiff are highly specialist breeds.

They were never deemed to be suitable for pet life in suburbia with a simple walk twice a day and owners leaving the house for 4-6 hours 5x a week.
Dogs of the past were meant to work in close partnership with their humans. Helping with herding, hunting and guarding property. Some were selected for sports such as fighting and racing whilst others for endurance and intelligence so that they can fulfil their jobs with ease.

A calm, placid dog that lucks energy and drive will make an excellent family pet, but a shoddy retriever or sheep dog.

A dog that has low prey drive won't succeed in flushing out game and one that doesn't display a certain amount of aggression makes for a lousy guard dog.

My point is, we have been selecting dogs for traits and tailored them to the intended use for millenia.
Maybe it's time for a new selection of dog fit for the 21st century. We already have working and show type breeding, why not one for pet breeding? Same look, but calm, a bit dim with low energy and prey drive.

I try and do just that. My breed can produce highly strung individuals. They are intelligent and get bored quickly. This can lead to a lot of behaviour issues if not channeled correctly. They can and will then, sadly, make the trip to the rescue centre.

I usually look for the calmer, more placid ones when I choose the next breeding bitch. They still need to meet the breed standard in terms of looks & size, they also need to be healthy and have a functional confirmation. I know that they will not make it as show or working dogs. They do luck that little something... but will make excellent pets!

Bad breeders come in many forms, just as good breeders do. There are certainly one time only pet breeders whose bitch and pups are impeccably cared for and rubbish "experienced" registered breeders.

In my search for a pup I came across an amazing breeder who is clearly making a good living out of breeding, however no expense is spared on her dogs and litters. They have the best food, are raised inside the home with a lovely outdoor play area, bitches and stud are fully health tested and cone from great lines. The breeder stays in touch with all the families she sells to and she's very particular where they go. She doesn't ever have to advertise her litters, they all go to repeat homes or by word of mouth.

My dog came from a first time breeder of her pet dog. Bitch was hip/elbow scored and fully health tested, as was the stud. Puppies all well cared for and we have a WhatsApp group for all owners, including the breeder - who kept a pup. Another pet breeder I looked at bred her dog as she wanted to keep one, plus a family member wanted one. Those pups were treated like royalty and I was worried if I took one the poor pup would feel like it was slumming it in my house 😂 Both those breeders advertised on Pets4Homes, oh the horror!

I also looked into another litter which it transpired was a puppy farm, of sorts. Breeder owned lots of bitches and a stud. Sometimes 2 litters on the go and bitches were being overbred and for too long. However, the puppies were well cared for and it was certainly far from litters being kept in dirty cages in a barn, with no socialisation etc. Obviously I steered clear of these though.

I don't think it's possible to distinguish good and bad breeders by any way other than to do your due diligence on each individual breeder/litter.

Would I breed my dog? I probably would if I had a crystal ball and knew 100% she'd sail through the pregnancy/labour etc. As it is I'd worry too much that something would happen to her at my hands. I'd do it not for the money (although it would help keep my dog as she's a huge expense!) but for the experience as I'm lucky enough to have the time to devote to raising a good litter.

Like some PP, I have no issue with a good and caring breeder making some money out of raising a litter: it takes a lot of time and thought, there are upfront expenses that might never be recouped (hip scoring, for example: you hip score your bitch, find she is above breed average, decide not to breed), and you might have to take a puppy back. There is the risk to your bitch, the potential for large vet fees - it's a massive thing to take on. Someone I do gundog training with is a fairly tough nut who has very good working dogs. He bred one of his bitches about three years ago, and when I asked if he planned to breed to again, he gave me a horrified, boggle-eyed look. He hasn't bred a litter since, and I'm not sure he ever will again.

My own experience of rescue is that they will quite literally laugh at you if you have young children: how much dog experience you have had, how much dog experience the children have had - it all counts for nothing. My BIL managed to rehome with your kids, but he has been exception amongst the people that I know. We tried, we gave up, we got a puppy. and my experience of breeders has been generally positive: one went so far as to home check us; three of four kept in touch for at least 6 years; one offered to have me to stay to help me iron out a training issue with the puppy she had sold me.

As @ArticWillow says, we need to think about breeding for pets, given the types of dog that languish in rescue (though I wouldn't call x-poos working breeds; there is one that beats on a local shoot and it's not exactly the driviest dog there). We have friends who have a rescue lurcher, and she is quite a lot of dog for them to handle (she was bred for hare coursing, which is illegal, and lamping, which is legal if you have the landowner's permission but not otherwise - her breeders were busted by the cops). She is lovely dog around the house, but they struggle to give her the exercise she needs. There are fairly regular posts on this board from people who have working-line spaniels who have gone badly off the rails (which is not an issue you ever come across on working gundog groups on FB).

And @Holidaysrule , if @coffeesaveslives is who I think she is, she has a long record on this board of posting about working with dogs and being an honest poster. We don't always see eye to eye, but she is 100% genuine. I think you owe her an apology.

Oh good god, that's not what I meant! Of course I take her to the vet. You were talking about breeders breeding animals fit for purpose with good confirmation and so on. This is of course what a 'good' breeder should do. But isn't it also what Mother Nature does? 'Good' breeders do exactly what natural selection does by selecting the best animals from which to breed. Sure I'd rather 'good' breeders breed than bad but there's so much confusion as bad breeders can often have all the right documentation in place and be seen as good breeders when they are churning out animals with serious life-long issues. You mention Arab horses (not something I know much about) but there's no end of dog breeds that just should not exist and would not in nature.
I am not a member but I go along with a lot of what PETA stands for: that animals are better off living their lives free from human interference.
My dog is an ex street dog and an excellent hunter and scavenger. I think she could survive quite happily given the space and right environment in which to live along with a pack of course. Her life would be tougher in many ways but more fulfilling in other ways. I do my best for her of course but she lives in a human's world because I said earlier humans have taken over pretty much the entire world. Given her life as it was in her home country (she was already in the UK when I adopted her), I think she's far better off living here but I can't help but think a free life in a suitable environment might have suited her more in many ways. Not that I'm romanticising it. But that would take a massive decrease in the number of humans on this planet and that ain't going to happen anytime soon, not to the numbers required at least.

I just don't like the way people use animals for the their own benefit. I use mine for companionship. She has done ok out of it because her options were so poor. But some do much worse out of it. Take horses for instance. All the commentary at the Olympics focuses on the partnership between horse and rider. I am not saying that every rider/trainer is as bad as that dressage woman caught whipping a horse but I doubt it's unusual. We stick a metal bar in their mouth for god's sake. Partnership my arse.
Horse racing came on the TV the other day. A man on his back, one at the front pulling him, two on either side pulling a rope thing around his back end, a hood over his head and this was described as "encouraging" the horse into the stalls. Fuck that.
So so many other examples but we'll be here all day.

A pp asked another poster if they would like to see domesticated dogs die out. Not sure what they said but I would. I don't doubt some dogs have mostly happy lives and bring their owners much joy. But the price domesticated dogs as a whole pay is too high imo. Also, go to your local park today. Observe the dogs there. See how many are being run into the ground by people throwing balls from their ball launchers, see how many old dogs there are who are clearly in pain but the owner can't or won't see it, see how many times you see someone yank the lead causing pain and damage to the dog's neck because they haven't taught them to walk on a lead (a spaniel was the last one I saw really being yanked and shouted at when the dog was just in all likelihood over stimulated, under exercised and not suitable for them as a pet), see if you can see a dog tied up outside the kids' play area whimpering and crying as dad and daughter play on the swings as I did the other day. This is what we can see, a lot lot worse goes on behind closed doors that's for sure.

It's not something I'd do but I do understand people going to breeders after being turned down by rescues. There's good and bad of course but the places don't always have the dogs' best interests at heart. Not when there's money to be made.

I'm being told it's time for a walk and this post is long enough! I find it really depressing but maybe I'll see some dogs having a nice walk and hopefully mine will be one of them.

Thanks @EdithStourton I appreciate it :) and yes, I've name-changed since we last had a discussion on here!

Considering that there are many working and specialised dog breeds rotting in kennels, maybe we should look at pet dog breeding again.

I think this is an excellent idea.

maybe we should look at pet dog breeding again.

Someone had better tell the people at Many Tears rescue centre who rehome ex-breeders in the most part that they'd better build some new kennels.

While I accept that there are better and worse breeders, where you get 'good', you'll also get bad and I don't see anyone coming up with a solution to 'bad' breeders.

The thing is because we have access to veterinary care dogs like pugs and French bull dogs can have surgery to try and improve their breathing (and there are many more examples), so “Mother Nature” is getting a chance to weed out those who are not fit for purpose.
IMO some animals are not better “living there lives free from human interference” we have domesticated then and bred in or out certain characteristics which we think are desirable dairy cows for example would simple die without human interference, and we do not live in a world where animals can roam freely. We are overrun with deer here they cause significant damage to our woodlands and natural habitats effecting other wildlife as well as endlessly being hit by cars it is widely acknowledged by wildlife experts that their numbers need to be reduced but doing it is problematic.
With regard to horses I agree that there are some highly undesirable practices going on especially in racing but in all areas others as well, I think things are slowly changing but I doubt they will ever completely change to enable a horse to live the life it was evolved to live.
And the example you give of dogs suffering frankly I don’t think being tied up outside a child’s playground for 1/2 an hour is the end if the world, this doesn’t mean it’s being abused the rest of the time, I suspect people have thrown things for their dogs to retrieve for centuries and dogs love it I agree in excess it’s wrong but then everything in excess is probably wrong. With regard to old dogs who are clearly in pain, you only have to read the many threads on here to see that many owners keep their dogs going far to long but are often encouraged to do this by other posters and by their vets who obviously are benefiting financially.
Finally because money is being made it doesn’t necessarily mean bad. I know someone who makes furniture he charges a fortune and makes stunning pieces of furniture the quality is incredible, he pays his staff a really good wage so that can also make incredible pieces of furniture. The reason why he charges so much (and makes a profit) is because making stunning pieces of high quality furniture takes times and effort. If your breeding high quality puppies from top quality dogs with all the necessary health tests, you care for the mum giving her the best of everything, you care for and socialise the puppies from an early age again giving them the best of everything, you meticulously screen potential owners and offer life time back up and will take them back if anything goes wrong this is a huge commitment of both time knowledge and energy so if you make a some money so be it, making money doesn’t make then bad at what they are doing, why do people have a problem with this? And I very much doubt the reputable breeder breeding 1 litter a year/every couple of years is exactly coining it in.

I have a friend who owns what she believes is a pedigree dog (not KC registered), it’s a blue merle but blue Merle doesn’t exist in the breed. The breeder told her that the breed club who set the standards on colour are old fashioned and stuffy and look down their noses at blue merles because they are harder to breed and some such rubbish and that the puppy she bought is 100% pedigree. I explained the genetics but she won’t accept it. The breeders were clearly puppy farmers having multiple litters a year and charge £4500 for a blue Merle “pedigree” dog. They are vague on their website about health tests, do limited screening of potential owners and don’t take the dog back in the event you can’t keep it. But my friend wanted a blue Merle and these type of breeders know this and that people will pay accordingly.
In fairness she loves the dog to pieces and so far it’s seems healthy and it has a great life and is no better or worse behaved than the average dog, so you could say what’s the problem?
I know lots of people with poddle crosses the vast majority have come from pet breeders at best or puppy farms at worst, all love their dogs, and again in fairness most seem healthy well adjusted (if a bit yappy). So you could be pragmatic and say does it matter especially if it’s a pet breeder who looks after their dog meticulously giving it the best of anything and breeding the occasional well cared for litter and making a bit of money?
Rescues do need to rethink their approach. No one offers a dog a perfect home, I know I don’t, but I look at my happy reasonably well behaved dogs currently stretched out by the wood burner who are about to go for a lovely walk and I know that I am trying to give them a good quality life and succeed the vast majority of the time, I would say the same thing applied to most of my dog owning friends but I suspect we would all be turned down for a rescue dog.

@Corgiowner So we breed pugs and French bull dogs who can't breathe properly because we have access to vets who can then perform surgery? How is this not utter madness?

As for dairy cows, given the life they have, I'm not convinced they would mind never having existed.

We do not live in a world where animals can roam freely. True to a degree but we could.
We are overrun with deer here. Sure, nature is out of balance. Can you think who might be to blame for that? Clue: there's 8billion of us.

Much of your reply is a real reach. I never said the dog outside the play area was suffering, I didn't give a time it was tied up for - you decided it was 1/2 an hour. I didn't say it was the end if the world, I didn't say it was being abused the rest of the time and so on... What I was saying that we don't always act in our dog's best interest. It was convenient for the man to take his daughter and dog out at the same time but that meant the dog had to be tied up outside the play area which wasn't in its best interest as it clearly experienced some level of distress.

As for people throwing things for their dogs, well centuries ago people didn't throw balls over and over for dachshunds with elongated backs and short legs as one woman was doing in the park the other day. Of course dogs find it fun - they live in the moment - and don't think about the long term consequences.

Not sure what point you are making about older dogs but I don't agree that other posters encourage owners to keep them going, quite the opposite in fact. We agree about vets in part though.

You also misunderstand my point about money being made. Take a look at how much Dogs Trust pays its top execs. Think about how they would do that if every or most dogs in their care were to be rehomed. That's what I meant. It's not a radical position, fairly well accepted that that is how they operate.
As for comparing a dog to making furniture... well that's just a bit odd.

@Corgiowner Sorry I really don't why you have said that (your latest post) in response to me but we seem to be coming at things from very different angles. I hope you and your dog enjoy your walk.

I may not have made my point very well. Personally I don’t think we should be breeding flat faced dogs who can’t breath but “Mother Nature” won’t be weeding them out because these dogs will if they are lucky will get corrective surgery.
I look onto a field if 200 dairy cows none look particularly unhappy to me currently all lying down a chewing the cud. In fact it is widely accepted that happy unstressed dairy cows produce more milk thus make more money for the farmer. Up the road from me is one of the largest dairy herds in the country all indoor cows but we demand cheap food and cheap food comes at a cost.
The dog tied up outside the playground may have experienced some distress but do really think street dogs don’t experience some distress during their lives?
You must read different threads from me I quite frequently see threads about PTS a dog that’s clearly suffering and at least one person will come on and say don’t do it try X Y and Z etc.
The comment about the furniture although I agree read clumsily but the point I was trying to make is that to produce excellence requires love knowledge time snd effort and is expensive and this principle can be applied to dogs and furniture making. And good on them if they can do it and make some money at the same time.
Youve given me one example of a dachshunds running after a ball but millions of dog owners throw balls for their dogs with no advers effects. If you have concerns about humans causing health problems in dogs obesity in dogs I would have thought was a much subject to be vocal about.
Unless we completely change the way 8 billion humans live our lives and go back to Stone Age principles we can never have animal roaming freely and let’s not forget “Mother Nature” is not kind to animals, survival of the fittest etc. We cannot open the gates and barn doors and let sheep pigs horses and beef cows roam freely not in the UK anyway and Im talking as someone who live in one of the least densely populated areas in the UK. Who pays for necessary vet bills etc, or are you happy for these animals to die in pain if ill or injured.
Anyway it clear as you say that you and I have very different views on these subjects I hope you get lots of pleasure and enjoyment from your dog(s).

I suggested upthread a way in which we might be able move things towards more considered breeding: having a licence scheme for very small scale/ pet owner breeders which shows that they are legit, have had basic training, that adequate health tests have been carried out etc.

A counterweight to that could be an absolute refusal to licence any breeding operation that produced more than a certain number of litters each year. That would be a massive chunk of bad breeding dealt with.

We come back round to the issue of whether the responsible should have to carry the can for the irresponsible. Should no one have a dog because a minority of dog owners bugger it up? Because many (probably most) dogs have - like people - less than perfect lives? (I give my dogs a bloody good life, but I wouldn't say it was a perfect one. But we don't live in Utopia, so how good is good enough?)

At what point do we say, nobody can have a motorbike because too many mad young bikers kill themselves or mow down innocent pedestrians? That we can't sell alcohol because too many men go home drunk and beat their wives? That we shouldn't have children because some people are terrible parents who neglect their DC? That we can't have dogs because some breeders are bad and some owners are incompetent?

If you're going to limit people's freedom, especially over something as profound and important to many of us as interacting with animals, then you need to be bloody certain that you're doing the right thing.

If it's the first time they've bred, how do you know they'll only do it once?

I promise you on run down areas it’s very common. I work in a school in such an area and in my class alone, four families are making a lot of money from irresponsible breeding.

NP.
I know some people lie on the internet, but the readiness with which some people accuse other posters of dishonesty doesn't sit well with me.

I think that you and I are coming from the same starting point: we both want our dogs to have good lives. We just disagree about how to get there, which hopefully means that we keep each other thinking over the issues.

@Corgiowner
or are you happy for these animals to die in pain if ill or injured
You've rumbled me. That's exactly what I want.
And the rest of your post is just as ridiculous. Sorry but it is.