How common, and socially acceptable, is it to breed from a pet dog in the UK?

[scam321]

I'm not trying to be controversial or goady - I'm asking this question out of curiosity and in good faith. I don't have a horse in this race as my girl is spayed (I also just wouldn't have the stomach for it). I'm not British and dog breeding is tightly regulated in my home country, so I'm very much coming at this from a naive outsider's perspective.

Since moving to the countryside (SW England) a few years ago, I have met several people who have had litters from their family pets - usually just the one. These dogs are loved and treated well, the breeding is done responsibly, new owners chosen carefully. My impression is that while these people like the extra cash, it's more of a bonus - they also see breeding as a rite of passage of sorts. While part of me still thinks, god, why would put your dog through that, I also can't criticise the way they've done it - at the end of the day, someone's gotta do it, and it might as well be them.

Previously - especially when I lived in a city - the narrative was always that "amateur" breeders were cruel, irresponsible, profiting off their dog's suffering, etc. Sadly I am well aware that breeders like this do exist and need to be stopped, but I suppose I've seen that there is another way and am no longer so black and white about it.

Nonetheless, this still seems to be a really controversial and divisive topic whenever it comes up - I have friends who are very, very anti. I'm struggling to understand what the broader sentiment is in the UK. Is it generally common and/or socially acceptable to have one litter from a family pet if it's done responsibly and lovingly? Or is it seen as deplorable?

Presumably the answer is somewhere in-between, or that there are different schools of thought.. I also assume there will be regional (country/city) differences and breed differences, but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions on this.

Gonna be looooong....

I think it's a complicated issue and there several questions to consider.

Firstly, will the puppies find homes? In the UK each year, about 150,000 dogs go through rescue (I've taken the 2019 estimate and rounded it up quite a bit). Pre-lockdown, there were about 9 million dogs in the UK. If we assume that only that group of people will be in the market for another dog, and that dogs live on average 12 years, that means there will be homes for about 750k puppies and adult dogs each year. Even if EVERY dog in rescue is found a new home, there is still space for a minimum of 600k puppies.

Secondly, where do we want puppies to come from?

Puppy farms? Obvious no: the puppies don't get adequate socialisation, the conditions are often squalid, it's a terrible life for bitches being bred back-to-back and so on.

People who show or work their dogs? Maybe... But the show ring often isn't as focussed on temperament as it should be (though some show breeders obviously are), and a lot of homes are just not suitable for a lot of working line dogs. The show ring also tends towards unhealthy degrees of exaggeration, and high levels of inbreeding with a consequent loss of genetic diversity. Do we want to carry on down that road? I don't, personally.

People who breed small-scale for the pet market? Who own four or five bitches, and have three litters off each, so end up producing a litter or two a year (because one bitch at least will have aged out, and one will be too young). Possibly: they will be experienced and they will understand about the risk and the health tests and so on.

Pets? Someone who hip-scores the bitch, and makes sure that the stud is free of the known recessive genetic nasties in the breed, and has someone to turn to for advice? I really don't see why not: I've known several people breed in pretty much this set-up. They were careful about where the puppies went (and in one case, took a dog back). I'd rather take a puppy from that sort of background than from someone who had six bitches and who was bordering on puppy-farm territory, or a show breeder who ticked all sorts of boxes but whose dogs had terrible temperaments.

Pets? Someone who sticks two dogs together with $ signs in their eyes - well, obviously, no.

And of course, there are shades of grey between all those categories: someone I used to know bred cross-bred terriers with no health checks, a litter every few years. They were robust little dogs, who went to local homes, and at least one was taken back by that breeder (owner illness). The breeder didn't do it for the money: she always kept a puppy, and didn't charge a lot for the ones she sold.

What I would like to see is some sort of system where if you wanted to breed your bitch, you could pay a fee, do a course and pass a basic exam (when to phone the vet, the importance of early socialisation, etc), have a basic inspection (clean, secure, proper whelping box etc), provide any necessary health test certificates, and get some sort of certification that you could put on your advert so potential buyers would know they were going to a legit person for their puppy.

at the end of the day, someone's gotta do it

They really don't.

If nobody breeds dogs, then there are no carefully bred dogs (or ineptly bred ones either). In fact, given the paucity of street dogs in the UK (like, none), there would soon be no dogs apart from imports.

Yeah, no.

What, make the UK a kind of safe haven for dogs suffering in other parts of the world? Perish the thought!

I don't necessarily think that importing dogs from overseas is the best solution but it can be - not always - the best chance a dog has of having any quality of life seeing as human beings have taken over pretty much all of this world.
But anyone who talks about well bred dogs is in my view not seeing the bigger picture.

The only reason to breed is to improve on what you have.
This means careful selection of both (fully health tested ) parents, and temperament as well as structure are important.
I waited a year and traveled a couple of hundred miles to choose, and then collect my youngest dog. He came from an experienced breeder, is fully health tested and is absolutely everything I wanted.

MN is not the place to get a sense of the general perception of breeding from pets in the way you describe. On here the perception is that it is awful and only terribly diseased tragic puppies will come from it. I am only being slightly hyperbolic...
Personally, I think that some considered breeding from pets surely is the perfect antidote to puppy farms. People, understandably, sometimes want a puppy rather than an adult from rescue. And, the clamour around 'full' rescues because of irresponsible back yard breeders doesn't add up because most rescues are full of dogs rescued from abroad. So taking laws of supply and demand into account it seems there aren't enough dogs in this country as they are imported in such numbers.
If more people had one litter from a special pet to pass on to friends and networks for a reasonable price to cover costs it would reduce puppy farming and harm to dog caused by it. Also, the genetic tests are needed because of inbreeding in pedigree populations, much less of an issue when breeding mongrels.
I understand why there was a strategic move towards more regulated dog breeding but it has led to unfortunate unintended consequences and we need to challenge current thinking.

This.

We had a litter from our dog. I’ll hold my hands up and say we were irresponsible. We didn’t spay her when she was young and kept her out of the way of other dogs when in season. Then we booked her in to be spayed when she was about 3 or 4. This was cancelled three times due to lockdown and her being in season at other times.
i went into psychiatric hospital after lockdown. Spaying wasn’t on our minds, I was in and out. My dH took her out one day, let her off the lead and she disappeared. He found her with the local retriever looking very happy!
Upshot was, 5 puppies a few months later. One died at birth.
All puppies went to friends. We had them all vet checked, vaccinated and wormed, microchipped before they left.
Would I do it again? Hell no! The stress of watching her in labour! Don’t get me wrong, it was incredible too. Amazing how she knew what to do instinctively. She was a brilliant mum and the pups were gorgeous. It’s fine for the first 3-4 weeks but then they get very mobile! And then it is chaos! Bundles of fluff weeing and pooing everywhere. Chewing shoes, carpets, curtains ! Falling asleep exhausted then being awake an hour later for the next round 😂
Ahhh they were cuties but I was pleased when they found their new homes!

At one point there was a scarily inaccurate and dangerous idea going round that all bitches should have one litter to ‘fulfil’ their life purpose.

Anybody who talks about 'the best chance a dog has of having any quality of life seeing as human beings have taken over pretty much all of this world' doesn't seem to know very much about dogs.

Dogs were developed from wolves by people: very few dogs live completely away from people, because their ecological niche is with us.

And bringing street dogs to the UK has massive implications:
Many of them do not adjust well to being in homes
Plenty of them carry diseases currently not endemic in the UK
They are not necessarily temperamentally predictable.
If they're truly feral and not habituated to people as puppies, they're going to have huge issue living with people.
Some landrace types are really not ideal as pets.

And believe me, I have nothing against street dogs. We had one when I was a kid, who was taken in as a puppy following an injury. He happened to be a lovely dog.

Gangs are making more from illegal puppy farming in Europe than drugs - wake up folks

We have working dogs. As do many friends. We all tend to work on word of mouth when wanting a puppy. They're KC registered but not bred for a certain look rather how their parents worked.

We're rural Wales though and don't find puppy farms for working dogs in our area

I bought 2 puppies from a person I know who had a very good pedigree bitch and bred with a good pedigree dog. The seller had all eye and hip tests done and puppies were KC registered. These were the only puppies the bitch would ever have and the bitch was 4 years old. She was a good dame to the pups and they stayed with her for 11 weeks. We have never had any issues with the pups who are now 6 years old and we send the breeder a birthday photo of our 2 bitches every year on their birthday. My bitches will never have puppies but they do have an excellent pedigree and their both mother and father have won best of class at large dog shows.

We bred from one of our working Labrador bitches, who had an excellent pedigree and whose sire was a famous champion and from a healthy line.
We did the same research for a sire for her litter, using another champion working lab, from a different line.
This was not only to ensure that all the health checks were in place, but also because we knew that, given the lineage, there would be more potential buyers than puppies and every one would go to a good working home.
Many of our buyers were down for a pup before the births, some even before the mating. We kept one out of the litter of nine.

So not quite the same as producing a litter for pet homes. But, having said that, I won't breed from either of the bitches we have now, as, done properly, it is very expensive and really hard work.

They don't, but then pets will not exist anymore

A mostly predictable response but I wasn't expecting quite such an extensive checklist of the old hackneyed arguments.
As I said, I don't think bringing dogs in from overseas is the best or only solution and I am aware of the issues you bring up. You're not saying anything new.
I just cannot support the breeding of dogs just because people want pets. You can and clearly do. We hold different views and nothing you say will change my mind and vice versa.
Oh, and it doesn't matter how dogs evolved. What matters is the situation as it is now and what kind of lives these yet-to-be-born dogs are going to live, as well as of course the breeding bitch and dog.

@Zebrashavestripes I can think of many reasons why that would be a very good thing.

@caringcarer
How do you know your pups' mother will only ever have one lot of pups?
Is it because the breeder told you? Because, unless I read your post incorrectly, the breeder broke an important rule by selling you two littermates and as such I would suggest is not to be trusted.
It seems like it's worked out for you which is a good thing but the breeder should not have allowed you to take this risk and it speaks volumes about them. Indicates a lack of research by you too.

Anyone who sells someone two puppies from the same litter should be ashamed of themselves.

I live in countryside and know three people who have bred from their pets. It's a quick money making scheme from people too selfish and thoughtless to care about the wider problem of rescue dogs.

We have a 4 year old (spayed) pedigree dog. When we first got her lots of people asked when we'd be "letting" her have her litter. They couldn't understand that a) she's a white boxer, so pretty irresponsible to breed from her b) there are huge risks and costs involved and c) the world does not need another litter of back yard bred pups. Some folk thought that we were being unfair in not letting her have at least 1 litter..... Madness!

When I got my dog someone pointed out that dogs aren’t bred to be a good pet. The pedigree breeds are bred for improvement of the line. Others are accidentally begat.

My dog was a superb pet, if I had bred from her there would have been plenty of good homes, and I wish I could have had a puppy of hers. Sensibly though, I had her spayed.

I just cannot support the breeding of dogs just because people want pets.
Genuinely, why not? I have two dogs, of a high-drive hunting breed. We give them an outlet for their inbred drives, feed them, care for them. They have happy and contented lives. Most of what they eat will come from the 'unfit for human consumption' part of the food chain. We're happy, they're happy, their impact on the environment is unlikely to be huge - probably no more than whatever hobbies we'd have instead of walking miles with them.

the old hackneyed arguments Yeah... The reason they're 'old' is that they haven't been refuted.

We hold different views and nothing you say will change my mind and vice versa. Oddly, my mind is open to being changed. I doubt I'd change it on this topic, but I'd never say never.

As for it not mattering how dogs evolved, I think it does. We've been tied up with them for millennia. Co-existing with dogs is a part of being human.

Some people have no idea and they are given the wrong information.

The lady who does my nails has a lovely dog, he is a designer cross breed though, she paid a fortune and was told, "in 40 years they will be a breed".

She has not had him neutered because, "look at him, someone will want to breed him".

On my local 'nextdoor' someone posted that their bitch was in season and did anyone have a male of the same breed.

After being told that it isn't as easy as that and no it wasn't god for their dog to have puppies I think they decided to get her 'done'.

I see this argument a lot, but I'm not sure what healthy puppies bred from family pets have to do with the situation in rescue centres.

Someone breeding their healthy Labrador and selling the puppies to nice family homes is not the reason there are loads of staffies, huskies and greyhounds languishing in rescue centres.

Our own dog was a result one of those breedings - if he didn't exist, we wouldn't have gone for a greyhound or a husky from a shelter instead - in fact, the reason we went for a puppy is that all the rescue dogs we found were totally unsuitable for us in the first place!

Why didn’t you use a proper breeder with experience, health tested dogs, lineage that was traceable and the knowledge of the breeder? Good Labrador’s breeders are fairly commonplace…why use an inexperienced family breeder who ran the risk of seriously damaging their dog permanently due to their greed?