How common, and socially acceptable, is it to breed from a pet dog in the UK?

[scam321]

I'm not trying to be controversial or goady - I'm asking this question out of curiosity and in good faith. I don't have a horse in this race as my girl is spayed (I also just wouldn't have the stomach for it). I'm not British and dog breeding is tightly regulated in my home country, so I'm very much coming at this from a naive outsider's perspective.

Since moving to the countryside (SW England) a few years ago, I have met several people who have had litters from their family pets - usually just the one. These dogs are loved and treated well, the breeding is done responsibly, new owners chosen carefully. My impression is that while these people like the extra cash, it's more of a bonus - they also see breeding as a rite of passage of sorts. While part of me still thinks, god, why would put your dog through that, I also can't criticise the way they've done it - at the end of the day, someone's gotta do it, and it might as well be them.

Previously - especially when I lived in a city - the narrative was always that "amateur" breeders were cruel, irresponsible, profiting off their dog's suffering, etc. Sadly I am well aware that breeders like this do exist and need to be stopped, but I suppose I've seen that there is another way and am no longer so black and white about it.

Nonetheless, this still seems to be a really controversial and divisive topic whenever it comes up - I have friends who are very, very anti. I'm struggling to understand what the broader sentiment is in the UK. Is it generally common and/or socially acceptable to have one litter from a family pet if it's done responsibly and lovingly? Or is it seen as deplorable?

Presumably the answer is somewhere in-between, or that there are different schools of thought.. I also assume there will be regional (country/city) differences and breed differences, but I'd be curious to hear people's opinions on this.

There are so many dogs in shelters, looking for homes, even fashionable or desirable breeds

The thing is, people who are looking for a family pet need a dog who has a sound temperament, that's good with children and that isn't reactive to dogs - they can't afford the risk of a rescue, and many of them can't be re-homed with children anyway.

A home breeder who is breeding a nice, even-tempered, healthy litter of "pet" labradors (or whatever) is not the reason why shelters are over-run with staffies or lurchers or huskies. They're two different issues.

@coffeesaveslives
I'd be willing to be that at least some of those nice, even-tempered, healthy "pet" Labradors (or whatever) would end up in rescue.
DogsTrust currently has fewer Greyhounds (34) or Siberian Huskies (21) than it does Labrador Retrievers (38).
They have 73 Staffordshire Bull Terriers but 71 crossbreeds

Border Collies, Chihuahuas, French Bulldogs, German Shepherds, Luchers and Jack Russell Terriers are all present in high numbers too and at least some of would have been bred by home breeders.

Interesting thread. I honestly hadn't considered that so many people would be anti this, but it makes sense.

My mum bred puppies a couple of times from our pet Shelties, 40 years ago now. We lived on a farm and pretty much had the vet on hand if anything went wrong (I don't think it ever did). I think she did it maybe 4 times - twice for each of our bitches. I have never asked her why - the pups were sold, and they were pedigree so I'm guessing it was for money. As far as I remember they were sold as pets and as working dogs, to other farms.

TBH I've never asked her why because it never occurred to me at the time or since that she was doing anything wrong. Neither of them were spayed afterwards - we just kept them away from other dogs, living on a farm made that easier.

@redboxer321 all I can say is that all the rescues in my area are full of the same breeds or cross breeds - mainly lurchers, sight hounds, huskies, collies, mastiffs and bully breeds.

I'm not saying there are never any home bred dogs in rescue - any dog can end up in rescue - but I just don't believe that Jane up the road who bred her Labrador and sold the pups to people she knows is the problem when it comes to dog breeding.

When does a home bred dog become a reputable breeder (genuine question)? If I ever retire and let’s say I decide to buy a bitch and then show her successfully I develop a good knowledge of the breed undertake all breed specific health checks register with the KC carefully find the appropriate stud dog then breed a litter am I a reputable breeder, a keen amateur or a knowledgeable home breeder?

It's a good question.

I'd also wonder how people are defining "reputable" - look at some of the KC registered dogs who have won crufts, for example? That German Shepherd with the awful sloped back, the Frenchie with the smushed face etc.

On paper, all "excellent examples of the breed" who are (on paper) healthy and expertly bred, yet who are walking disasters in reality.

@Corgiowner Why would you want to 'show' a sentient being?
If you did breed in the way you describe it would make you not as bad as some breeders imo. But presuming that is not your aim, why would you want to breed? Why would you want to put your bitch through that? A hobby in retirement? You would need health tests btw, not just checks.

@coffeesaveslives I don't think Jane is the only problem but I do see her as part of the problem. Also, you do know that all the dogs listed - cross breeds, lurchers, sighthounds, huskies, collies, mastiffs and bully breeds - are bred as pets.

The major reason I would never breed from my dogs (both neutered anyway) despite ideally loving to keep their family line going, is purely because I couldn't guarantee that every single puppy would go to a loving forever home where they got the love, healthcare, training and stimulation they need.

With our first dog (who was an un-neutered female Border Collie), she was so beautiful in her nature and her looks that we seriously wanted to let her have one litter and we intended to keep one of her pups, but after researching the reality of how many puppies could be in a litter and what could go wrong at birth etc etc, and no guarantee that she'd only have a small litter, we decided to neuter her and not let her get pregnant because my main concern was that every puppy would have a loving forever home.

My brother bred his dog and he has absolutely no idea where all but one of those puppies are now and the money he got from them is all gone (which makes it sound/feel like a dog's entire life vs a quick handful of cash) - I don't speak to him as he bred his dog twice and his vile girlfriend's family all breed all of their multiple dogs for easy money whilst they sit round drinking and not working, but that's a whole other thread for another day.

Why would you want to put your bitch through that?. But if you have a dog you have already put a bitch "through that"-its mother

I’m using term checks/tests interchangeably. I’m not saying I would do any of this having shown horses I know it’s a complicated and controversial business.
Im just trying to ascertain when a home bred litter of puppies becomes a well bred litter of puppies from a reputable breeder.
With regard to showing dogs horses or even cows it is possible that those who have good correct functional confirmation ( this should always be first and foremost) meet the breed standard, have straight paces etc can and do win. But I am aware that in the world of both horses and dogs current breed fashions can override the requirement for good correct functional confirmation and a straight gait. Successful show dogs and horses should be setting the breed standard (assuming the breed standard isn’t for deformed monsters). Ideally a breed standard is set and breeders aspire to produce horses/dogs that meet it, breeders show to demonstrate to others who are interested and knowledgeable about the breed that they have dogs or horses who meeting the standard and also inform the less knowledgeable what a correct example of the breed should look like this should maintain a standard. I went to a recent cattle show and was fascinated by what makes a show winning beef bull. In horses in particular but also in most breeds of dog you would like to hope that this produces sound fit for purpose animals (I accept this doesn’t apply to some breeds yes Arab horse breeders I’m looking at you)
My young dog was shown before I got him at 10 months, it has many advantages he walks beautifully on a lead has travelled a lot by car was well socialised and used to be handled this has lead him to taking everything new in his stride, so it’s not done him any harm; shy nervous dogs (and horse) don’t do well in the show ring. So I’ve got no problem with showing providing no cruelty is involved.

@redboxer321 sure, I'm aware of that, but I think it's disingenuous to pretend that there isn't a huge difference between breeding labradors and breeding huskies or bullies.

Collies and "working" dogs like lurchers or racing greys are a whole other issue entirely imo.

I agree I’ve no plans to breed (or show) I was talking hypothetically, where they go would worry me and also being able to take the dog back if there’s a problem I know reputable breeders offer this. That’s a 12-18 year commitment that I would have thought that most people would not be able to keep.

@Zebrashavestripes I haven't and I wouldn't. I would only home a dog who already existed. Sometimes people refer to me as my dog's mum and are swiftly corrected.

@Corgiowner Mother nature sorts all that out though. Survival of the fittest. It's the arrogance of human beings that they think they know best when it's pretty obvious that they don't that gets to me.

@coffeesaveslives But the dogs you listed can make good pets and Labs can make pretty poor pets. Depends on so many factors. I'm also not convinced that there are that many Janes about. The likelihood of somebody knowing say eight people who wanted a dog at the time the pup was ready, could provide a suitable home for that pup and for the next 15 years is at best slim. And the likelihood of Jane being able and willing to take up to eight pups back at any time for the next 15 years I would say is probably zero.

If we’re relying on “Mother Nature” then we shouldn’t ever take our pets to the vets. And whilst I think many pets are over treated and subscribe to the ethos of “just because we can doesn’t mean we should” I think to deprive you pet of basic veterinary care is significantly crueler than taking your dog into the show ring or dare I say it breeding from your dog.

But what you refer to as "champion breeders" and appear to look down your nose at aren't the source of the problem either in that case. You seem to be viewing "pet dog breeders" through rose tinted spectacles and believing they are superior.

I've had a couple of dogs from pet breeders, three from kennels with imported working bloodlines and three from show kennels. Before getting a puppy we do our research, check the bloodlines and ask for details of hip and elbow scores and eye testing. These things should be the priority - along with the temperament of the dam (and sire too if it is possible), whether the dog is from a top show kennel, a working kennel or "Jane up the road". You can get a good dog from any of these breeders but you can just as likely end up with a bad dog if you don't do your research.

But the dogs you listed can make good pets and Labs can make pretty poor pets.

Well yes, I'm not saying otherwise - but let's be honest, nobody is breeding labradors to fight, or as a status dog - whereas (unfortunately) huskies, bullies and mastiff type dogs are bred for those things, as are many lurcher-types. I live rurally, and we have a fairly big problem with lurchers being deliberately set on cats, or being used to go lamping etc. illegally.

That doesn't mean they can't make great pets, of course, but it's the motivation behind the breeding that I'm talking about, rather than the breed itself.

The likelihood of somebody knowing say eight people who wanted a dog at the time the pup was ready, could provide a suitable home for that pup and for the next 15 years is at best slim. And the likelihood of Jane being able and willing to take up to eight pups back at any time for the next 15 years I would say is probably zero.

TBH, the same could be said for many "KC" breeders too. I've seen multiple threads on here where people have KC registered puppies from breeders who don't give a toss once they have their money, and there are many who advertise on gumtree to try and sell their litters.

I just don't buy the argument that "proper registered breeders" are intrinsically any better than someone who does it for the love of the breed, or because they think their labrador would produce a great litter of pups.

@PyreneanAubrie I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, I just don't buy this idea that properly registered breeders are automatically good, and home breeders are automatically bad.

The whole thread is about whether it's socially acceptable to breed pet dogs - and I personally don't see it as a major issue as long as it's done sensibly.

As you say, you can have bad dogs from both "proper" breeders and home breeders, so I can't understand why so many are arguing that the latter is automatically "wrong".

“As you say, you can have bad dogs from both "proper" breeders and home breeders, so I can't understand why so many are arguing that the latter is automatically "wrong"*.
I think you probably have a point @coffeesaveslives as I said up thread nearly all my dog owning friends have purchased their dogs from “home breeders” all seem happy healthy and nice dogs. I suspect if you want a less common/rare breed then your more likely to have to go to a “proper breeder” but for labs or round here lurchers and working cocker spaniels then you are probably will be fine purchasing a “home bred” puppy as long as you’ve met mum liked her temperament the relevant breed health tests have been done and you can see that the puppies have been well socialised/handled.

@Corgiowner yeah, I think as with everything, there are good and bad on both sides. Our dog came from a "home" litter - we're still in touch with his breeder almost seven years later and his litter mates are all healthy and doing really well. They've all turned into excellent family dogs with great temperaments.

I'm also a member of a breed-specific Facebook group and the dogs with the worst issues seem to either come from blatant puppy farms/dodgy breeders (a la Kelly's Kennels) or from supposed "KC registered" show homes where, on paper, the dogs look "perfect".

Like with all things, I think there's probably a balance to be had somewhere.

My dog was from a home breeder who only bred her dog twice. She was kc registered, her dog was fully health checked with hip scores etc. The male was a very highly regarded dog whose owner was a kc registered breeder (she was a fully registered breeder) with health checks etc.
I can't remember why she bred the first time, but the second litter was to the keep a puppy and the rest were sold, some to people who had a dog from the first litter. Her dog was spayed afterwards and she is now longer a breeder.
She had a waiting list where all interested parties had to write about the home set up, why we wanted a puppy. We also had what was really an interview where the whole family had to go to see the mum and her pups.
We originally went the rehome/rescue route but with having cats and chickens we weren't successful.

Hard to argue with that!

Thank you for all the replies - still reading through everything. Really interesting. @TeamPlaying correctly predicted that it's a fool's errand to try and establish broader sentiment, at least on MN. We need a YouGov poll...

@Scutterbug this made me smile - I hope you are doing better now.

This is such an outdated view. The world of dog rescue has moved on, light years from this.

Many rescues have a proper assessment of any dog that is looking to be surrendered prior to them taking it on. Not that they will not take on a dog with issues, they do of course. But they want to know what those issues are before they place the dog to ensure the dog has the best chance of success in its new home.

I am an assessor. I have assessed SO MANY dog that have literally, nothing wrong with them. They have simply been bought by people (and sold by utterly unscrupulous breeders who don’t bother with home checks) who didn’t think it through. Who didn’t appreciate the time and money ANY dog takes, who loved the dog until the children came, then locked it in the utility and wonder why it barks 24/7, who bought a giant guardian breed (because they look “cool”) but live in a tiny house and can’t be arsed to walk it and now it’s eating the furniture, who Molly coddle the dog to death, teach it nothing and then wonder why it thinks it rules the roost, who’ve had the dog for 5+ years but then get a new puppy then decide they no longer want it. All situations I have assessed. All those dogs were 100% safe to be rehomed and went on to have very happy lives with new responsible owners.

Sadder still is the people who genuinely and passionately love their dogs but circumstances (usually unexpected and extremely severe illness) mean they can no longer keep the dog. They are heartbroken to let the dog go, but are absolutely doing the right thing for the dog.

You have no idea what you are getting when you buy a puppy. KC registration isnt worth the paper it’s written on and I have never yet in more than 40 years met a breeder who wasn’t, at heart, in it for the money. Any breeder who does not do an in person home check for one of their dogs is in it for the money.

Plus. All dogs in rescue were puppies once. Bred by people and owned by people and let down by both.

There are of course dogs in rescue with issues. But any reputable rescue will only place them with experienced owners who know what they are doing. Who can and will do their best to undo the damage done by shitty breeders and shitty owners. I’ve done it, lots of times. Taken on the “difficult” dogs or those about to be euthanised simply because no one wants them. They have all (almost 40 now) turned out to be absolutely fine. Safe with people and safe with other animals,

So, no, to answer your question op. I do not believe it is acceptable in anyway to breed your pet. The world already has enough dogs in need of a home.

I struggle rationalising it all to be honest. Suggesting people do it to better the breed, is utter tosh. Everyone does it for money, whether they breed their pets as it’s a ‘nice’ dog or ‘reputable’ breeders who do health testing etc. they just have a license to charge more.

it’s always about money when it comes to breeding.

So, no, to answer your question op. I do not believe it is acceptable in anyway to breed your pet. The world already has enough dogs in need of a home.

Genuine question - if you don't believe anyone should ever breed their pets, do you believe dogs should die out completely?