Dog training methods - I've seen it all - how do we know what's right?

[SuddenlyOld]

At my age I've seen so many training methods come and go, lauded to begin with then trashed as the next method comes in.

First it was Barbara Woodhouse, then Jan Fennell, Cesar Millan, currently Southend Dog Trainers, and even Graeme Hall

All have since been shown to promote 'unhealthy' training methods. Even Graeme Hall looks good on TV but apparently it's all staged and doesn't last.

So my question is, how do we know that current training methods are right for our dogs, or for us?

I do wonder about this because I remember Jan Fennell being on TV and her methods seemed amazing and made sense. I tried them on our barky, jumpy sheltie cross. It didn't work and now her methods have been debunked.

So how do we ever know that current methods are right?

When I say "be stricter" I mean, work on the timing and value of the treats you use, not on phasing them out altogether.

Yup, done all of those. I do believe that there is an element of emotional response (per my earlier comments), but I don't think it's this anymore.

And yes, I know they don't take the piss in the way we understand it. He is bed trained, I've tried different cues in case the one I was using was poisoned, I've taken a step back, several steps back, walked away completely, put his bed in the back of the car, trained him on a different mat, put that in the back of the car. All with the same result. The greedy bugger uses it to get more food.

Absolutely this.

I’m late to this thread and apologies if anyone has already said this, but key to training is investing time and effort in developing the appropriate relationship with your dog from the word go.

Training, imo, is a completely different ball game from trying to correct undesirable behaviours which have become established due to an inappropriate relationship with your dog.

By which I mean especially inexperienced owners who treat puppies like babies and have not a clue about developing behaviours which will enable a dog to become reliable, sociable, biddable.

Tried everything that motivates him everywhere else. Chicken, cheese, hot dogs, beef treats, liver etc etc.

Definitely not in pain, he's been checked and is quite happy to jump a similar height in other scenarios. And for lesser treats too.

@HappiestSleeping you have taught your dog that waiting is worth the effort!
My Tibetan can be like that: let's see what else thre is that I can have...

Religiously throw the lot in at the end of the walk. Let him watch and check that's what you have done. Tell him it's all gone!
Honestly, he'll learn. You can reduce the amount that you have on you... keep some spare in the car if you must.
Other thing I have done is preparing my Tibetans food before the walk them feed after. Dogs are clever, he'll want that food after his walk... so he has to jump in to get the dinner. Although it will take some time to make that connection.

This is what I am trying (i.e. reducing the treats) however some of the other posters above think it is the wrong way to go.

Then I would still say there's something about the car that's bothering him.

Have you tried a totally different method altogether - getting in first and getting him to jump in after you, for example?

Ok so you have done all of that
What happens when you cue to the mat?
Can you increase the distance you are from the mat?
When you put the same mat in the car what happens?
How is the behaviour different when asking to jump into the bed in the car when the bed is on the floor?

@HappiestSleeping reading your recent replies, I am also wondering how consistent you are with your training.

Most things suggested work over time as dog training is just conditioning to do a cretin behaviour to a set cue.
Just because you think your dog is clever and learns very quickly, doesn't mean he can do that for every command. Jumping into a high dark space where he cannot see in can be tricky. If he has to jump into a crate, he needs spacial awareness... the anticipation of sounds can stop him - closing crate ot boot.
It's better for him to wait until the treats are piled up and their smell is irresistible.

In your shoes start again. Use a different comand, stick to one type of treat.

Does he react to the other cues eg go to his bed and then get his reward?
Do you have to give him multiply treats to go to his bed?

It's not about the amount of treats.

It's about telling him that you have given him everything you have. Hence the let him check that is what you have done.

He wants them all, now! So give him all now!

Also, I would contest that the idea of a dog wanting to please is a little bit of a myth. What they want is to get what is in their interest. Humans have anthropomorphised this into it being a dog's desire to please. Training is about aligning what we consider to be desirable behaviour to what the dog believes is in its best interest.

Well you've hit the nail on the head. Currently your expectation of behaviour and what your dog believes to be his best interest are not aligned, for whatever reason. My suggestion was essentially start again from the beginning with a different command and higher value treats.

You asked if doing something the dog finds unpleasant is an aversive - yes it is. Lifting him into the car if he finds that unpleasant is aversive.

But it doesn't mean that positive reinforcement doesn't/won't work that you've now resorted to lifting the dog into the car.

You've decided that you don't feel he should need treats anymore - he disagrees. You have to use the treats in the right way, which means experimenting sometimes. If you've thrown a bagful of treats in the car and after 2 hrs he still won't get in, then there must be something else going on that's making him feel uncomfortable about it.

I think it's something I'm doing. I don't think it is to do with the car at all. Somewhere along the way, I've given him to understand that it can work this way despite best intentions not to. He is leveraging this.

Cue to the mat, he goes to the mat and gets a reward.

Everything works fine until we get to the car, at which point he awaits more treats.

I know, it's definitely something I've done.

Edited to add that I think I am very consistent. His recall is good, I can ask him to sit in one field while I hide a dummy in the next field and he won't move until I release him, even with other dogs around. He walks nicely to heel with or without a lead. He does go around, fetch, spins both ways (to wipe his paws, not because he's a circus trickster), and any number of other behaviours.

Yup, done that too. Shown him empty hands and everything.

I wouldn't use a cue (command). I'd actually just chuck the treat and wait. And wait. And wait. Once he is reliably jumping in THEN you can put a command on it if you like but there isn't really any need. It will become an innate behaviour.

I didn't ask whether the dog finding something unpleasant was aversive, I was using it as an example that the dog finding something unpleasant is aversive. This was in response to a PP referencing that aversive = pain, so my example was to show that it is not always painful.

And I haven't decided that he doesn't need any treats anymore, just that he should have fewer and after he has done what's been asked of him, not before. He definitely disagrees, and the point of my comment was that I am experimenting. The first experiment was to lift him in.

He has no issue with the car. If I'm working in the garden and not planning to go out anywhere he is quite happy to sit in the boot and watch me. If I put my coat on, or any other indication that we are going out in the car, he is out and looking expectantly for a treat to get back in. I can even start the engine and he'll do the same thing, so I really don't think it is anything to do with the car. It's definitely something I've done, but I am mystified as to what.

As I said earlier, I ran out of spare time to wait when I tried this previously.

Then I would probably recommend trying a completely different method altogether.

So, forget treats completely (when it comes to the car) and try something else entirely. Get in first (obviously holding his lead) and encourage him to jump in after you, for example.

That's exactly where I am up to. My first new method altogether was to lift him into the back. I've already tried getting in first. My neighbours found it hilarious 😂

The issue is that if he doesn't like being lifted, you risk other problems developing if you keep doing it, if that makes sense.

Another option is maybe conditioning him to being lifted up in general, though most dogs will never really love it.

Yup, absolutely get the risk here. I've only tried it once to see what happened. Strangely, he got in the car much more readily the next time (second of two). Not enough to go on as yet, but interesting nonetheless.

I've actually conditioned him to be handled for other reasons, so he doesn't have a massive issue with being picked up.

@HappiestSleeping I am not recommending this... but I once left my I'm smarter than humans terrier at the local park - sod wouldn't get near the car after every walk and catching him had turned into this big catch me if you can game .... DH had to go and get him about an hour later. He sat in the carpark cold, wet and shivering.
He never played the catch me if you can again.

Point is, dogs can predict our behaviour and react accordingly. Do something unexpected and see what happens.

For example: car boot open. Take dog out of the house to the car, throw a treat in and shut the boot and just take the dog round the block. He's going to be lost. All the buid up and excitement for his treats game... gone! Repeat over a few days...
If he's smart, he'll eventually get in to fetch that treat!

Take dog out of the house to the car, throw a treat in and shut the boot and just take the dog round the block

This one I had not thought of. What an excellent idea.

Re your 'catch me if you can', I've found that just laying on the ground is great for this. As long as the dog can see you, they generally come straight back.