Dog training methods - I've seen it all - how do we know what's right?

[SuddenlyOld]

At my age I've seen so many training methods come and go, lauded to begin with then trashed as the next method comes in.

First it was Barbara Woodhouse, then Jan Fennell, Cesar Millan, currently Southend Dog Trainers, and even Graeme Hall

All have since been shown to promote 'unhealthy' training methods. Even Graeme Hall looks good on TV but apparently it's all staged and doesn't last.

So my question is, how do we know that current training methods are right for our dogs, or for us?

I do wonder about this because I remember Jan Fennell being on TV and her methods seemed amazing and made sense. I tried them on our barky, jumpy sheltie cross. It didn't work and now her methods have been debunked.

So how do we ever know that current methods are right?

I've just seen your other posts - if your dog is unsure about the car in general then I would be focusing on making that a positive experience by sitting in there with him on the driveway and giving him treats or even feeding his meals.

If you do it often enough (ie. multiple times a day for a good few weeks) he should learn that being in the car is a good thing for him. You can train him to get in the car in a similar way, though I would also be looking at making it easier for him by using a ramp or steps as some dogs find jumping in and out of the car quite painful or unnerving.

Oh yes, definitely. The clicker has been invaluable.

I don't think he's anxious about the car as such, I think it's the reasons I stated before. When it suits him, he is straight in.

OK, call it a lure then. He shouldn't always need to be lured.

Rewarding the dog with a treat for getting in the car is just teaching him that jumping in the car leads to good things, which is what you want long-term (car = treats = something positive)

This is proving my point. Rewarding for getting in the car. I.e. reward after the action. Lure is reward before the action which can be predicted. If we don't like the term 'bribery', let's just say that he predicts getting a treat and would like to wait ever increasing times in order to predict more treats are forthcoming. 😉

It's because I want to phase out the reward that I have changed my approach. I've done all the feeding in the car etc. He's not apprehensive, he's just taking the piss as he is food motivated. He does it in other scenarios too.

To me it sounds like he's not ready for you to phase out treats because he's still struggling with this.

Are you already using his highest reward value treat?

If I was doing this and i needed 10 pieces of cheese to reward my dog, id switch it out and use one piece of hotdog, which she will do literally anything for. The hotdog would only be used for when I'm training her in relation to this issue.

If it was mine, this is what id do: Ive trained my dog to touch my hand with her nose, and she is really reliable so id go out to the car and stand by it. show her the hotdog and then ask her to touch my hand, click and treat. Do that a few times outside and around the car. Put my hand inside the boot of the car, when she jumps in to touch my hand, click and treat - takes the focus off the jumping in the car, and onto doing another command that she might find easier. The jumping in the car becomes incidental. After she's got that, i can introduce a command for jumping in the boot and start training that instead but first she needs to be comfortable with getting in the car and although your dog has got in the car, it doesn't sound like he's comfortable doing it.

If she won't jump in the car, go back a few steps and click and reward her for moving towards the car, putting her feet on the bumper, attempting to jump up. That is how i trained my girl after she was scared of her harness being put on, lots of desensitisation. It was very very boring and i didn't want to have to do it but it did work and now she's fine.

@HappiestSleeping why are you so keen to phase out the treat when he's clearly not ready for that stage in his training?

Some dogs learn very quickly and don't need a food motivator for long (some don't need it at all) but others will always need it because (to them) what you're asking them to do isn't worth it otherwise.

There's no point in getting rid of treats if it ends up with you getting frustrated and your dog not having any desire to do as he's asked.

To add, my dog is six now and he still gets food rewards on a daily basis and we still enforce his training with treats.

He's a beagle and has no desire to please anyone 😂 he's bred to work independently so we have to allow for that when we train him.

He's rewarded for getting in the car, for walking nicely past other dogs, for recall, for responding when I tell him to leave something etc.

I don't see a point where we'll ever get rid of treats because it will just set him (and us) up for failure.

@Dakotabluebell and @fieldsofbutterflies - I thought I'd address both together as they are linked.

I'm keen to reduce the level treats as I think that after more than a year I should not need them anywhere near as much. As I said, I don't think they are necessary, I think he's taking the piss. It isn't the first time that I've come to the realisation that it is in fact he who has been training me. He learns really quickly, however in this instance, he has really quickly learned what gets him a treat, and that is to sit at the back of the car waiting for me to throw one in.

I've used varying levels of reward, and no, I didn't start out with the highest value. I've done the nose to hand touch thing. Ultimately, I know I have brought this all on myself, which is why I am looking to change it. All of the things you suggest have brought me to where I am today.

I am not frustrated, in fact, quite the opposite. I find it fascinating as I know that ultimately I am responsible for the situation I am in. He gets loads of treats, however he shouldn't need to be treated for every single thing. If anything rewards given at random periodicity and of random quantities are usually more effective (gambling theory).

I didn't ever suggest getting rid of treats, merely that he should get them as a reward, i.e. after having done something.

Also, I would contest that the idea of a dog wanting to please is a little bit of a myth. What they want is to get what is in their interest. Humans have anthropomorphised this into it being a dog's desire to please. Training is about aligning what we consider to be desirable behaviour to what the dog believes is in its best interest.

It's because I want to phase out the reward that I have changed my approach. I've done all the feeding in the car etc. He's not apprehensive, he's just taking the piss as he is food motivated. He does it in other scenarios too

If you really want to phase out treats then you need a 2 step approach. Especially if dog is a little bugger for not getting in.
Step one jump into car & treat. Step 2 ask for a sit or down "good doggy" & treat. Do this for a few days or even weeks. Until it's an automatic behaviour.

Next, ask for getting into the car and sit "good doggy" treat & another "good doggy".

Basically you replace the treat with a good doggy command.

But then, why do you want to phase out the treats? I would always have treats on me and even when trained to do the behaviour without, will slip one occasionally as a reminder.

For foodies, the off chance of getting a treat is worth the effort!

All good suggestions, but sadly ones that have already been tried.

I don't want to phase out the treats completely, I just think he should not need to be bribed into the car after this length of time, as all this is doing is making him wait longer and longer (for more treats) before getting in.

For foodies, the off chance of getting a treat is worth the effort!

Completely agree - see above post about gambling theory.

@HappiestSleeping word of advice, don't get hung up on he should not need to be bribed into the car after this length of time
It's just how dogs are.

Watch some top level agility, flyball or search & rescue training; every single dog will collect a reward at the end.
One of my dogs loves doing agility, yet every time we enter the ring she checks that I have the ball and asks: what do I need to do to get that ball?

This. I have to show my dog I have a treat ball, put it away then we work and she gets the treat from the ball when she has performed, if you will. It's just the way dogs are and especially terriers. You have to make working with your worthwhile. You can 'gamble' which can raise the stakes a bit for them but only when a behaviour is solid.

One of the basic skills we worked on in agility is do something, then get toy. Then do two things then get toy etc, building up how much she had to do to get that reward very slowly and very carefully to stop her obsessing over it and watching it rather than me. I bribe her sometimes with a lure and especially in the early days but as she is the most amazing problem solver I use shaping more than luring as it taps into her natural skills and she gets more of a buzz when she gets it right.

My goal is that a behaviour is solid enough that I can cue it when I don't have a treat on me and I will get it, not withholding the reward completely. Won't get far with many dogs doing that. With the car example the walk will eventually become the reward so it is self rewarding but if it isn't or it is still new you will need to reward the dog for getting in the car. My dog leaps into our van as it means COOL STUFF is going to happen when we get out but to begin with we threw a treat in for her to get once she got in.

The gambling theory only works if your dog is happy to do "X" reliably without a treat, though. If he's not interesting in jumping in the car without a piece of cheese, then phasing out the cheese will just get you into a battle of wills with your dog, which isn't ideal for either of you.

For example, I rarely need to reward my dog for sitting anymore as he's happy to do it solely with the command, so while I do reinforce occasionally (maybe every 1 in 100 times), it's certainly not regular. However, he's not so happy walking past other dogs (after being attacked) without a reward, so I always use it in that situation - as I have to think about what the consequences would be if I didn't.

That's why I said I would only gamble when a behaviour is absolutely solid.

Sorry @Newpeep that was aimed at @HappiestSleeping , not you :)

I don't think you have quite understood my point. you say about collecting the reward "at the end" which I understand to mean "after the dog has done something". I would be most happy to get to this point. My dog however wants to collect the reward at the beginning. And I wouldn't even mind this if he then got on with it. Having received his reward at the beginning, he then wants another reward, etc etc etc still not actually doing the thing.

Quite frankly, I am not prepared to put a kilo of treats in the back of the car before he gets in. I know everyone's methods differ, and I have no opinion should someone else wish to. I just want my dog to get into the car and then get his reward. He knows that this is how everything else works in his life.

Again, in your example my dog would be demanding the treat ball before working. You are actually making my point for me that they should do something and then be rewarded, whereas my dog wants the reward first. This is what I am working through as he isn't going to get paid in advance.

How does he know that getting a treat first is even an option, though? Was there a timing issue with his reward training at some point?

Exactly this. It's why I wanted to phase out the treats, or at least reduce them. It's also why I would like to get to the point where he does what he's asked before getting the treat.

Maybe you need to be a bit stricter about giving him treats or using only really high value treats then?

Because it started with a lure - i.e. getting the treat first (albeit the treat was thrown into the car and he had to jump to get it).

Now, he waits until the treat has been thrown in. I could could handle this if it were just one treat, however it depends on what mood he's in as to how many he will wait for. Could be five, could be twenty. I didn't want to find out what was the maximum, so I stopped at twenty, hence I have now changed my approach.

That's how I started my comment in this thread, but I got asked why I wanted to be stricter, so we have actually come full circle I think.

Ok, so just chuck one treat in and wait him out. Make it high value. He is being a dog. He is waiting to see if it is worth his while. It may take a session. It may take hours. But eventually he'll get in.

Sounds like he is been an excellent problem solver indeed and very much trained you ;) My dog offers a down if something is harder than she would like. and she just wants snacks now thankyouverymuch. So I wait, maybe change my mechanics and then ask again. I don't give up or phase out the food.

Think dog.

He is not taking the piss.

Have you mat or bed trained him?

Does he happily go into his bed or mat without a treat and then get rewarded when he has done so.

eg he goes on bed and then reward as opposed to luring him onto the bed first?

I would look at what his behaviour is when ask to go to any location and the I would review with the car.

I wold want to check out dogs hips and any pain that he may get from jumping into a car if there is a reluctance to do so.

I woud aso check that the area they are jumping in to is clear and the dog can see well into the area. No dog guards leads etc to jump over.

I would also want to check out the dogs emotiona response to the car - rescues can have a long built in concern about car travel.

I would also proof the cue I use to ask him to get into the car.

I would ask the cue step back from him and see if he jumps into the car.

If not I woud retrain a new cue onto a specific rug or mat. Start training on the floor then when this is going well I would put the mat into the boot of the car.

Personally I would want to rue out any concerns or health issues that your dog has with jumping into the back of the car

What treat are you using? It sounds like it's not high value enough if he's genuinely sitting there and watching you chuck 20 treats into the car and not even moving or attempting to jump in.

What happens if you hold the treat right by his nose and encourage him in that way rather than chucking?

I also wonder if he could be in pain.

He is indeed an excellent problem solver. You are not wrong on it taking hours. Taking your approach, I got to two hours before I gave up and haven't had an opportunity to try for longer. In that instance we went back in, so he didn't get either the treat, or to go to the beach.