Bully breeds

[Jenzine]

There are many understandable concerns regarding these types of dog, and as a dog owner myself, I have taken to avoiding places that I’ve encountered them, as a precaution, because dog aggression is common in them as a breed instinct, just as ratting is to terriers and herding to collies.
Areas I can walk my dogs (I always walk them individually, I don’t trust other people’s training of their dogs, and want to be sure that I can manage any situations that arise, which is always infinitely harder when walking multiple dogs) are vanishing at a fast pace with the baffling popularity of these mutants.
Defenders of these dogs always claim it’s the owner not the breed, however there are bad owners of every breed and most breeds still aren’t killing people fairly regularly. There also seems to be no consideration among the defenders and deniers that even if the dog is genuinely nice and loving, that it could become unwell (brain tumours, neurodegenerative conditions, general sickness) which can make even the friendliest Labrador have a sudden change in behaviour.
If any of my dogs, god forbid, ever get poorly in a way that makes them react aggressively, I know that I’m physically capable of preventing serious injury to myself and others by restraining the dog; I don’t believe the same could ever be said of an American bully XL or their owners.
All this to say, what is the justification for an otherwise reasonable person (not the drug dealers and chavs buying status dogs) with or without children to get one of these dogs? Just “liking them” surely is not an acceptable answer when weighed against the lives of human beings? What can they offer as a companion animal that you cannot get from any other breed of dog that you are actually physically capable of controlling?
How are these enormously heavy and powerful dogs not automatically in violation of the dangerous dogs act just by existing as a creature capable of exerting about 240kg of force at the higher weights of 60kg (dogs being capable of exerting force at 4x their own weight)? I don’t believe any human is capable of controlling these animals physically, and verbal control of dogs is never 100% and as someone with a lurcher, I know that no matter how well my dog recalls in general situations, the moment her prey drive is activated, she will not even hear the command to be able to follow it, which is why she’s only off lead in enclosed fields.

I don’t believe in any of the myths about these dogs perpetuated by either side (E.g the locking jaw myth of the anti-bull breed brigadiers, or the nanny dog myth of the staffy/APBT nutters) dogs are dogs, they can be good/bad, well treated/abused, but I don’t believe that owning dogs is a right, I believe it’s a privilege that is too often abused, even by well-meaning people.
How many times do we have to mourn children and adults before “[dog’s name] has never done this before!” Is no longer something we hear all too often from people with dogs that can’t be restrained by anything less than a cruise ship anchor, after their “loving family pet” has mauled a grown man to death in a park, or dismembered a toddler in their own home?
People often compare this argument to the argument against guns in America, however, a gun is not an autonomous animal capable of physically overpowering its owner and firing itself at will; dogs are.

XL Bullys are the drug dealer's dog of choice around my parts adding another level of 'security' against the police/feuding rivals.

As for it being the dog/the owners fault, without regulation of these dog breeds there will no doubt be further deaths.

@PizzaPastaWine agreed, I really hate the argument that the people who want them for intimidation purposes will move onto other breeds, because I don’t think any breed that can be considered intimidating has any business being sold to the general public without any oversight. Dog licensing has been tried before and the dangerous dogs act has proven more effective, but laws aren’t updated quickly enough to keep up with dodgy breeders adding whatever breed to the lines that will change the characteristics enough to dodge the specific measurements of banned breeds.
Also hate the argument because they COULD be buying other breeds right now, and there’s a reason they’re NOT.

Dog owner all my life and have never felt as concerned by another breed or other dog owners behaviour as I do now. Completely agree with you. Bought by some people as weapons and other as a fad....bred to be the first and it will cause more tragedies

It's completely terrifying.

I know the DM of 10 year old Jack Lis is campaigning for change. If that poor boys death cannot change legislation then I don't know what will.

The issue is we have banned other breeds before and people have moved to these dogs.
We have laws here about dogs needing to be in control in public. About them needing to be on a lead in certain situations etc etc. They aren’t enforced.

my dog weighs just shy of 14kg he could easily pull me over if I wasn’t concentrating and he saw something he wanted to get too. I talking as someone who’s spent their life around horses and cattle. Could I restrain him in the highly unlikely event that he attacked me I hope so. But he’s as daft as a brush I just don’t see him attacking anyone he’s well socialised well behaved most of the time loved and very well exercised. He is treated like a dog I have clear expectations of what I behaviour I expect from him. Frankly the worst he could do is jump up at steal a treat.
Personally I would own a “bully breed” putting to one side their multiple health issues and that many are bred by irresponsible people who don’t give a shit about temperament I think that your right to own something that is often bred to be aggressive and that you wouldn’t have a hope in hell of restraining if the chips were down and then bringing it into your home/family is sheer madness.
It’s not that there’s a shortage of other breeds out there. I don’t know how many different breeds of dogs there are in the UK but you would have thought that putting these hideous distortions to one side there are plenty of other more suitable dogs.

“I don’t think any breed that can be considered intimidating has any business being sold to the general public without any oversight”

That’s entirely subjective though, what’s intimidating varies by person.

“Also hate the argument because they COULD be buying other breeds right now, and there’s a reason they’re NOT.”

The reason is the same reason people buy french bulldogs and not Boston terriers or cockapoos and not poodles... fashion.

Wouldn’t own a bully breed not would😃

”That’s entirely subjective though, what’s intimidating varies by person.”
Oh come off it. Only the seriously dog scared/phobic are going to be intimidated by a pug or a toy poddle.
I live in a rural farming community Ive never seen an extra large bully dog but the pictures I’ve seen it’s doesn’t exactly take a huge leap of the imagination to see that average person smooching down the road minding their own business could be intimidated by an extra large bully.

@Wolfiefan i don’t believe any member of the general public needs to have any animal capable of killing people as easily as the XL Bully, if the people buying these dogs for the wrong reasons (is there a right reason?) move on to cane corsos or other such breeds, I don’t really see any reason not to ban those for private citizens, too. There’s no reason someone needs a dog that weighs as much as a grown man that shouldn’t require regulated, job specific training.
I wouldn’t want to own a dog that I couldn’t pick up and carry in case of an injury to the dog that would be made worse by walking on it.
Part of being a responsible dog owner is choosing a dog that’s right for you, the breeds that dominate the fatal attacks list are all dogs with clear characteristics that lend themselves to increased ability for violence, at least, and demonstrate by being on the list, that they have a propensity for violence too.

Dog breeds don’t go, pugs, toy poodles, then bully breeds though.

Non dog people often find black labs intimidating, they just see large black dog.

Giant breeds are intimidating to lots of people just because of the sheer size of them.

I’m not a huge fan of the xl bully type dog for other reasons, but I don’t find them intimidating, having seen the result of a Great Dane bite though... they worry me.

So, yeah, it’s subjective.

@tabulahrasa the type of dogs people buy for intimidation purposes aren’t the same as the type of dogs some people are intimidated by. It’s pretty much only fighting dog breeds (chow chow, Akita, bully, etc) certain mastiff/molossar breeds (cane corso, bullmastiff, Rottweiler) and the massive livestock guardians (Caucasian shepherd, Turkish kangal) that people buy for intimidation factor. The Scottish deerhound has a pretty strong bite force of 400+PSI (200PSI higher than the pit bull), can weigh around 40kg and is very tall at the shoulders, but no one is buying this breed to purposely intimidate people.

That’s the issue. Ban xl bullies. Then any bull terrier. Then Rottweilers and Doberman’s and GSD and huskies and deerhounds and great Dane’s and wolfhounds. And …..
I have wolfhounds. I know others with the breed. Responsible owners who love wolfhounds and care for them but also train them and ensure they don’t bother other people. But this dog hysteria could end up losing every dog bigger than a spaniel. It’s mad.
The issue remains that the owners need to be keeping their dogs under control in public. That is the law. That’s what we need to enforce.

@Wolfiefan fair point, but again, I included deerhound as a dog that isn’t intimidating in the same way as a chow chow or cane corso, and certainly wolfhounds aren’t, the two I’ve met have been pretty daft, again my point wasn’t size, but type/purpose.
The dogs these people go for are the ones with breed instincts dialled towards aggression, you mess up in training a spaniel, what’s going to happen? You’ll lose it in every hedgerow. You mess up in training a Collie and it’s going to be rounding up and nipping everything from toys to children to cars. You mess up training a cane corso and you’ve got a dog with the instinct to bite people who trespass on what the mastiff considers their territory, with no hope of being able to safely have visitors.
My dog is part deerhound, she’s the most even tempered dog I’ve had, and my main concern is for her and my other dogs, when places to walk dogs have become overrun with dock heads walking their XL Bully dogs off lead at 6 months old, letting them run up to other dogs and posture, acting like the dog’s being all cute and friendly as it wags it’s tail high, fast, and excited. I know some dogs can be challenging to train, but someone’s poorly trained golden retriever is generally not a problem, just a bit of a hairy nuisance; an XL Bully is inherently more dangerous, when the default with a lot of the owners is; lockdown dogs, status dogs, and the people who want to be seen as Uber-compassionate, like “oh they’re so misunderstood, they’re just the sweetest,” while they hang off their dog’s neck, getting their face as close to the dog’s as possible, just begging to be bitten themselves.
Bull breed dogs show less of a reaction when stressed, Labradors stressed out by toddlers will communicate their stress, by growling, moving away, lip licking and whale eyes, etc; bull breeds don’t really do this, this makes some people who see growling as a bad thing (and we all know those kinds of idiots exist) pretend that makes them a steadier, more docile/accepting dog, it doesn’t, it means you can’t tell when the dog is getting uncomfortable to the point of stress; these dogs go from silently suffering the child pulling on their ear, to mauling it to death, without reacting to the annoyance in a way that lets you know it’s time to separate child and dog.

The issue remains that the owners need to be keeping their dogs under control in public. That is the law. That’s what we need to enforce.

The vast majority of deaths caused by xl bullies happen in the home.

The issue with kids and dogs is they shouldn’t be put in that situation though. And you don’t find deerhounds and wolfhounds intimidating but many many people do. You can’t ban every dog that any person finds intimidating. The only dog that’s ever knocked me to the ground and trampled me was an over excited golden retriever!! And I’m bloody wary of dachshunds as most we meet are unfriendly and pretty dog aggressive.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1

@Wolfiefan I've already clarified the intimidation factor is on the side of the person buying it to intimidate with, not the person who feels intimidated.
With regards to children and dogs, they shouldn’t, I agree, but they are, because the idiots who own them usually believe the nanny dog myth, overestimate their children and underestimate the dog. How many literal toddlers need to die before something is done?
If XL Bully dogs were only killing their own adult owners who made the choice to buy one, it would be one thing, but they aren’t. They’re mauling people and dogs/cats in public, visitors to the home, and children in the family, too.

All this to say, what is the justification for an otherwise reasonable person (not the drug dealers and chavs buying status dogs) with or without children to get one of these dogs?

Looks - Fashion- Status

And that’s on the owners. It’s the owners we need to control.
The issue is here that anyone can breed and sell dogs and anyone can buy them. We do have laws about dogs being under control but they’re not enforced.
Control the breeding and buying of all dogs. Stop puppy farming, commercial breeders and backyard breeders. Ensure everyone who buys a dog knows their legal responsibilities.

The government needs to ban them.

But we have already banned breeds in this country. These people just move on to a different type of dog.

I have 2 big lab/rottie mixes one is all black but has a massive head and is huge but people just see lab and always stop to talk to him stroke him ( he's the softest dog I've ever met ) my other one looks more rottie with the colours but is a bit smaller but people are defiantly more worried about him even tho he's a softie as well. Mine are well trained plus I never let them off lead just because I don't want people to be worried about them.

I know someone currently who is in a domestic violence situation. And none of her family can physically get to her in her home to perform an intervention because of her partner's XL Bully.
I think, on a practical level, their jaw is just too powerful to make them a suitable pet. In the same way that, in the UK, you can own a shot gun (with the appropriate licensing), but not a semi-automatic weapon.
If my dog goes for a child or another dog (never happened and never will - she's an angel 😇) she would potentially draw blood and cause scarring. However, if a Bully does it, it will result in death.

There’s a family in our fairly narrow city street who have two of these xxl bully type dogs - when they walk them, the mum holds the lead for one and a boy aged about 8 has the other. His dog weighs probably twice what he weighs.

If I see them ahead in the distance when I’m walking my much smaller, gentle dog (on lead too) I’m afraid I turn around and quickly walk away. I know it’s my prejudices because I’ve never seen either of the xxl dogs behave badly but it’s a risk I’m not prepared to take.