Bully breeds

[Jenzine]

There are many understandable concerns regarding these types of dog, and as a dog owner myself, I have taken to avoiding places that I’ve encountered them, as a precaution, because dog aggression is common in them as a breed instinct, just as ratting is to terriers and herding to collies.
Areas I can walk my dogs (I always walk them individually, I don’t trust other people’s training of their dogs, and want to be sure that I can manage any situations that arise, which is always infinitely harder when walking multiple dogs) are vanishing at a fast pace with the baffling popularity of these mutants.
Defenders of these dogs always claim it’s the owner not the breed, however there are bad owners of every breed and most breeds still aren’t killing people fairly regularly. There also seems to be no consideration among the defenders and deniers that even if the dog is genuinely nice and loving, that it could become unwell (brain tumours, neurodegenerative conditions, general sickness) which can make even the friendliest Labrador have a sudden change in behaviour.
If any of my dogs, god forbid, ever get poorly in a way that makes them react aggressively, I know that I’m physically capable of preventing serious injury to myself and others by restraining the dog; I don’t believe the same could ever be said of an American bully XL or their owners.
All this to say, what is the justification for an otherwise reasonable person (not the drug dealers and chavs buying status dogs) with or without children to get one of these dogs? Just “liking them” surely is not an acceptable answer when weighed against the lives of human beings? What can they offer as a companion animal that you cannot get from any other breed of dog that you are actually physically capable of controlling?
How are these enormously heavy and powerful dogs not automatically in violation of the dangerous dogs act just by existing as a creature capable of exerting about 240kg of force at the higher weights of 60kg (dogs being capable of exerting force at 4x their own weight)? I don’t believe any human is capable of controlling these animals physically, and verbal control of dogs is never 100% and as someone with a lurcher, I know that no matter how well my dog recalls in general situations, the moment her prey drive is activated, she will not even hear the command to be able to follow it, which is why she’s only off lead in enclosed fields.

I don’t believe in any of the myths about these dogs perpetuated by either side (E.g the locking jaw myth of the anti-bull breed brigadiers, or the nanny dog myth of the staffy/APBT nutters) dogs are dogs, they can be good/bad, well treated/abused, but I don’t believe that owning dogs is a right, I believe it’s a privilege that is too often abused, even by well-meaning people.
How many times do we have to mourn children and adults before “[dog’s name] has never done this before!” Is no longer something we hear all too often from people with dogs that can’t be restrained by anything less than a cruise ship anchor, after their “loving family pet” has mauled a grown man to death in a park, or dismembered a toddler in their own home?
People often compare this argument to the argument against guns in America, however, a gun is not an autonomous animal capable of physically overpowering its owner and firing itself at will; dogs are.

I don't think there's much arguing with the fact that over half the human fatalities in the last couple of years have involved an XL Bully - it's hugely disproportionate.

People can find anything from a wolfhound to a dachshund intimidating - but when was the last time either breed killed a human in the UK?

A lot of them weigh a lot more than I do as an adult woman (50kg) and I don't think there's any way that even most men could overpower them in an emergency.

Given that these XL Bullies contain a large % of pit bull DNA I'm surprised they're not being dealt with by existing legislation as put bull types.

The pocket bullies also deserve a mention - not quite so dangerous but incredibly poorly bred to the point that a significant propertion can barely walk and a high proportion are in a lot of pain. DFriend is a vet and has had to put down several of these pocket bullies in the last year - all very young, months to a year old - not for behaviour reasons but because they're in too much pain and it's not resolvable.

@ItsHardknocklife are you capable of holding your dogs back, should they decide they don’t like another dog/child? Labs are pretty small, relatively, not sure how big a lab/rottie mix would be. There are three Rottweilers in my area, one is very friendly with other dogs and people, even allowing my dog to be a bit of an excitable dope while the rottie was suffering with a torn and bleeding claw. The other two Rottweilers are owned by a breeder just a road away. The breeder takes them to shows, the dogs are gorgeous looking, they’re recommended by the KC as a Rottweiler breeder, but their dogs once escaped their trailers as they were packing them up to go to a show, to chase a cat. The cat ran up a tree and the dogs redirected onto a nearby miniature yorkie. They nearly killed the yorkie. They’re lead reactive and dog aggressive, how long before they turn a corner and meet another dog with no warning? This to say, I know Rottweilers can be excellent, but they are incredibly strong, to be fair, despite being a very powerful dog, they don’t make it into the fatal dog attacks list as often as GSDs even. Must be some reason for that. As I said to @Wolfiefan the argument that they move in to other dogs doesn’t really hold any water with me, since the same breeds keep popping up on the list, and since the banning of pit bulls, pit bulls have made the list twice, potentially, but all it says is “banned breed” meaning the dog likely matches the pit bull measurements, the other banned breeds being a bit more obvious. It took how long for them to move on from pit bulls to the pit bull’s mutant cousins the XL Bully? 20 years? And once they did, fatal dog attacks had a sharp rise not accounted for by growth of the dog population in general? Seems like it’s fine to just let these things exist, clearly there’s nothing to be done 🤷🏻‍♀️ (sarcasm, obviously)
@AtlasPine if you have a dog, walking past an XL Bully is not worth the risk, they are bred with dog aggression inherently, no matter what people claim otherwise. Slight offence to someone who made the choice to own two of these things, and allow one to be walked by a literal child (which is definitely illegal, children under 16 aren’t supposed to be holding the lead of any dog, especially one that large) over the continued existence of your sensible dog who isn’t a menace to society is not a difficult choice, offend the idiots all you like, from a great distance.

I'm not usually in favour of increasing control and limiting by law people's freedom of action but this is a situation where I think it might be a good idea. Some breeds or types are quite clearly much more dangerous than others due to a combo of build and genetic drives (it should surprise no one that dogs descended from fighting or guarding breeds fall into those categories - all three dogs that have drawn blood on my dogs did).

You either ban breeds or broad types (which helps but as pp have pointed just causes a shift to other breeds or types), or you require licencing for certain breeds/types/sizes (with an educational element) or you enforce dog licencing across the board in a sensible and proportionate way (no, it's not reasonable to double the cost of a licence because my bitch is not spayed by age 1, because I want her to mature intact until she's 2 or 3).

I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm seeing more and more muscle dogs where I live (it used to be gundogs, collies, terriers and small fluffies) and such data as there is indicates that they are more prone to doing damage to people and other dogs than most other dogs.

@AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride those toad looking things are certainly problematic, but on the same level as pugs and frenchies, unscrupulous breeders charging thousands for dogs less healthy than your average puppy farmed parvo pup. There’s certainly a conversation to be had about the ethics of breeding dogs with serious health issues, but even as a dog lover who’s childfree, the safety of children should be ensured as a first priority, and the little mutants don’t pose as much of a risk to children as their massive cousins.
You’re absolutely right about the number of deaths being disproportionate, and it’s in multiple ways, both disproportionate to the increase in dog ownership in general, and with regards to comparisons to other breeds, even the ones that have been popping up on the list for at least 10 years (chow chow, Akita, GSD).

Can we just clarify there is a world of difference between these XL Bullies and a frenchie or British bulldog. I have had bullbreeds including four Bullmastiffs my whole life and will never have anything else . I've not once had an aggressive dog but they've all been well socialised and trained .
Clips of These XL Bullies are all over my Facebook page , primarily in American homes where they seem to live peacefully amongst families .
This breed over here is one I would give a big swerve to , they are so powerful and dragged up by the brain dead type druggies on sink estates . These dogs are in the wrong hands and imo they shouldn't be bred from but you can't help stupid.

We banned breeds in 1991, and averaged maybe three to four deaths a year.

We’ve had ten plus for the last two and five in 2023 so far. If XL Bullies were roaming around the Home Counties something would be done but since it is only the poor and the children of the poor being torn apart it is apparently fine.

I really have no understanding of ‘they’ll just move onto another breed.’ So ban the other breed, it is not an argument at all.

These dogs won't be in the Home Counties because people aren't
as stupid . How few brain cells do you need to have to see these dogs are not family pets . It's not up to others to protect the ' poor ' from their own decisions . Ban these and they'll just find another weapon of choice .

@EdithStourton definitely agree on the licensing point, my deerhound mix lurcher wasn’t spayed until she was nearly 16 months, and I still worry it was too early, the vets were pretty insistent on spaying before the second season and I’d already told them to shove it once before, (she is medium sized because she’s only 1/4 deerhound, and was finished growing upwards at 12 months) full deerhound bitches should be intact until they’re at least 2, or you’re probably causing more health issues than you’re preventing. The vets were trying to push me to have her spayed at 6 months “we like to spay them before they have a season” as if all dogs magically have a first season at 6 months old? As if you can predict when their first season will be, she didn’t have her first season until she was just under 11 months old.
I’m not sure what the answer is myself, in terms of long term solutions, but I know that people are actively dying to these dogs, and banning the breed and destroying those that already exist is going to put a stop to that for at least a little while, it took them 20 years to go from pit bulls to XL bully dogs, and people say “they ruined the Doberman, the Rottweiler, the staffie” etc but frankly, I don’t see those breeds on the list of fatal dog attacks very often even 10-15 years ago compared to XL Bully dogs in only the last 3 years.

Exactly @hattie43 and there it is, that appalling not so hidden attitude. People and children can be killed in the most awful way (I’m quite hard pushed to think of a worse death) because they deserve it, it is an appropriate ‘punishment’ for not being well educated. I’m sure that’s great comfort to Jack Lis’ Mum.

@hattie43 i never included frenchies or other bulldogs, they’re bulldogs, and a bullmastiff is a different thing entirely, I use bull breeds to refer to bull terrier mixes (APBT, American Bully, Staffordshire bull terrier, bull terrier, etc) mainly, and the only exception to the bulldogs being separate is the American bulldog, but that doesn’t even look like a bulldog. Bulldogs (excepting the American bulldog) aren’t bred for dog aggression, neither are bullmastiffs, bull terrier mixes are, and demonstrate it frequently. Most outside the home dog attacks on people are from owners trying to separate dog fights.

Interesting, I live in a rural village, lots of dogs, few problems, except the non picking up of poo. We do however get visitors.

Last week I was just coming back to our house with my dog. I met two men with two large dogs, on leads fortunately. I knew they were American Bullies which they confirmed. Fortunately they went the other way.

I had never seen the men before and my husband thought they were travellers trying to blend in whilst checking out people’s properties.

The dogs were huge and eyed mine up, she would not stand a chance.

I agree, they should be banned, however some people who live outside the law will still have them

Yes I agree it’s subjective and what people find intimidating is not just physical size e.g. height. My neighbour has a tall lurcher about 27 inches to the shoulder but he is not intimidating he’s elderly and fairly slow moving as well (least I don’t find him intimidating) on the other hand another neighbour owns a very large gsd I don’t find that intimidating either but I accept that some people might and that I also suspect that more people are intimidated by the GSD than the lurcher. My friend owns a boisterous and large vizla he jumps up badly and although not malicious I can easily see why people might be easily intimidated by him.
I think banning any breed is fraught with problems ban one another will inevitably of a slightly different type will crop up. They’ll be cross breeds so where does it end? I don’t think reintroducing dog licensing is viable because owners of X-LARGE bully’s will either buy one or if they choose not too who will enforce the law? Compulsory training before dog ownership again I would have thought almost impossible to enforce responsible owners will attend maybe even the irresponsible but there’s no guarantee that they’ll take the training in board. Many on here suggest that all dogs should be on leads in public spaces to me this seems like overkill you are penalising the majority who don’t own these type of dogs. I can see this might be sensible for busy urban public parks assuming off lead dog areas were also created but what about rural dwellers walking their dogs across field often rarely meeting another dog/person this is again is overkill. And as stated above most serious dog attacks occur in peoples homes so keeping dogs on leads when out is unlikely to address the problem.
In all honesty I don’t have a solution. I guess it’s fair to assume that all those who purchased/acquired a dog that then went in to kill them or a member of their family prior to the attack genuinely believed that they had sufficient control over it or it had the right temperament that it would not attack. The “it will never happen to me” ethos. Somehow we need to address this and I genuinely don’t know how we do that.

It is up to “other” both morally and legally to “protect” the children of the “poor” from the decisions of the parents or parents friends.
It also up to “others” morally and legally to protect the neighbours of people who own these dogs be they poor or not.

Lockdown didn’t help, as the price of dogs rose, so the sort of people who had these dogs and were also the sort that didn’t have money to bother neutering their dogs , then saw a very easy way to make a lot of money.

@Giltedged there just aren’t any valid reasons to own a dog that is capable of killing a person and has the breed characteristics that make them likely to. The XL bully is a perfect storm type of dog, with a massively powerful frame, big broad head and jaws, and a genetic propensity for violence. Wolfiefan was trying to defend these beasts by saying the status dog dickheads would eventually move onto wolfhounds/deerhounds…. There’s a reason none of them have these dogs already, hounds are wimps, gentle giants, no one is intimidated by a greyhound, they’re as physically capable of killing you, and able to run you down to do so, they just never would, even under abusive conditions.
Any dog they move onto that would be a concern for public safety should be banned as well. If they ban the XL Bully and they do move onto Rottweilers, (which didn’t actually happen when they banned pit bulls, despite pit nutters claiming otherwise, as evidenced by their placing on the fatal dog attacks list being pretty stable and minimal for as potentially dangerous as they are) and Rottweilers start killing in the numbers bull breeds are, absolutely ban them as well. No one needs these dogs in this day and age, we have no tribe to protect, no wolves at the door.

We have an 8 month old Weimaraner. She's quite big and I can see that people sometimes feel a little intimidated by her. We still attend training classes with her and there is an XL Bully in the class. I really feel for the lady who brings her because he just pulls her around the place. She's trying so hard to train him. I cannot understand why she went for that breed though! I guess people could say that about a Weimaraner though 🤔.

He does tend to growl at other dogs but then many of them in the class do that. I have to confess to feeling quite intimidated but I think that's down to recent press coverage.

I know @Jenzine - I was agreeing with you.

I think the only reason nothing has been done so far is because the attacks read like a roll call of Britain’s most deprived areas and as such no one cares, as can be seen in the despicable post above: people ‘deserve’ it for being ‘stupid.’

If children from the affluent parts of London were being ripped to shreds something would be done speedily enough.

I'm generally against big breed bigotry, as some call it. I have been wary of various breeds but learned better as I got to know those dogs.

However I've come to the conclusion that we do need to ban certain breeds, and update the legislation as and when. Add XL bullies to the list, we'll probably need to add akitas as well, at some point.

DNA testing is easy enough now. It's much easier to enforce than it has been before.

Agree with pp who pointed out there is a massive difference between dogs that a classed as bull breeds.
Personally I wouldn't have any dog that I couldn't physically restrain. Be that a bull breed or a Great Dane.

However I do own two Staffies. I've always owned Staffies and adore them not as a status symbol or to intimidate but because they are fabulous dogs. The nanny dog thing is true I have four children and the dogs adore them. They are the softest most gentle dogs.
I've had friends who were nervous of the Staffies thing but when they've actually spent time with mine completely changed their view.
I also know other Staffies who are big softies too.

My dogs are well trained and have good manners around other dogs and people. I've worked very hard with them to be like that. I've loads track of how many little dogs have come over and barked snarled at them and the just stand still with a bemused look on their faces.

The other day an off lead Jack Russel bit one of them on the face and he came an hid behind me.

I do agree with dog licensing and I think unfortunately a small group of irresponsible owners so spoil it for others.

@deepspace9 recent press coverage and common sense. Another person mistaking dogs bought for the purpose of intimidation with dogs of a size that some people find intimidating. Hunting dogs (viszla, Weimaraner, sighthounds, etc) might be large and capable of damage to humans, but they are never on the fatal dog attacks list, there are reasons for this, and a lot of them are down to the type of dog, the instincts of the breed. Your dog is not intimidating to a reasonable person with no mitigating factors with regards to dog related phobias, you didn’t (I assume) buy your dog with the purpose of intimidating people. No one buys a Weimaraner to intimidate people, they buy a Weimaraner because they don’t like having free time to lounge about. Again dogs bought for the purpose of intimidation are always of the guarding/fighting type (akitas, pit bulls and their ilk, chow chows) and guess what breeds are always on the list of fatal attacks? It’s not the Weimaraner.

But how do you prove someone buys a dog for the purpose of intimidation. I’m 50. Over my lifetime I have seen staffies, Rottweilers, pitties, huskies all bought by these type of people. But I’ve also seen them bought by responsible dog owners. It’s not the breed. It’s the owner. Plus ban them and they will move onto the next.

@troppibambini6 yeah, Staffies are less of a concern, they don’t show up time and again on the list of killer dogs, the nanny dog thing is actually a myth and was invented in 1971 to change the optics of the breed, by a breeder of the name Rant. She later wrote a book where she reiterated the claim as though it were coined by someone else “they’ve been called the nanny dog,” yeah, by YOU, Ms. Rant.
Staffies are quite a bit smaller than people think they are, too, a lot of people lately have been mistaking american bulldogs and AmStaffs for the English staffie, they’re not comparable.
I suppose I’ll clarify: bull breeds which already have a cemented presence on the list of fatal dog attacks. (Basically just the XL bully and the American Bulldog in recent years.)

My 2 love other dogs they are really sociable never had an issue.. I also have a cat who they love plus they are more scared of him then he is off them! I'm pretty sure tho if they wanted to go I proberly wouldn't be able to hold them back they are a lot bigger then a standard lab. Never had to tho as I've said lots of training from pups but I do understand your point.

I saw a Dalmatian really viciously and completely unprovoked grab a much smaller dog by the throat! The owner was far down the beach, the dog was off lead. Luckily the smaller dogs owner was not afraid to kick the Dalmatian and got him off. Are Dalmatians known for being vicious?

When you don't like or know much about dogs they can all seem intimidating tbh (toy sizes not included). I agree dangerous ones should be banned

Ok that's interesting and fair enough the nanny dog thing might be a myth.
I suppose what I mean Staffies are unbelievably good with kids. Mine frequently intervene if me of dh are chasing or roaring at the kids in a game as they don't like it all. If they ever come on the school run they cry when the kids go into school.

I agree with you though.
The recent issues with the XL bullies are worrying and something definitely needs to be done.