Bully breeds

[Jenzine]

There are many understandable concerns regarding these types of dog, and as a dog owner myself, I have taken to avoiding places that I’ve encountered them, as a precaution, because dog aggression is common in them as a breed instinct, just as ratting is to terriers and herding to collies.
Areas I can walk my dogs (I always walk them individually, I don’t trust other people’s training of their dogs, and want to be sure that I can manage any situations that arise, which is always infinitely harder when walking multiple dogs) are vanishing at a fast pace with the baffling popularity of these mutants.
Defenders of these dogs always claim it’s the owner not the breed, however there are bad owners of every breed and most breeds still aren’t killing people fairly regularly. There also seems to be no consideration among the defenders and deniers that even if the dog is genuinely nice and loving, that it could become unwell (brain tumours, neurodegenerative conditions, general sickness) which can make even the friendliest Labrador have a sudden change in behaviour.
If any of my dogs, god forbid, ever get poorly in a way that makes them react aggressively, I know that I’m physically capable of preventing serious injury to myself and others by restraining the dog; I don’t believe the same could ever be said of an American bully XL or their owners.
All this to say, what is the justification for an otherwise reasonable person (not the drug dealers and chavs buying status dogs) with or without children to get one of these dogs? Just “liking them” surely is not an acceptable answer when weighed against the lives of human beings? What can they offer as a companion animal that you cannot get from any other breed of dog that you are actually physically capable of controlling?
How are these enormously heavy and powerful dogs not automatically in violation of the dangerous dogs act just by existing as a creature capable of exerting about 240kg of force at the higher weights of 60kg (dogs being capable of exerting force at 4x their own weight)? I don’t believe any human is capable of controlling these animals physically, and verbal control of dogs is never 100% and as someone with a lurcher, I know that no matter how well my dog recalls in general situations, the moment her prey drive is activated, she will not even hear the command to be able to follow it, which is why she’s only off lead in enclosed fields.

I don’t believe in any of the myths about these dogs perpetuated by either side (E.g the locking jaw myth of the anti-bull breed brigadiers, or the nanny dog myth of the staffy/APBT nutters) dogs are dogs, they can be good/bad, well treated/abused, but I don’t believe that owning dogs is a right, I believe it’s a privilege that is too often abused, even by well-meaning people.
How many times do we have to mourn children and adults before “[dog’s name] has never done this before!” Is no longer something we hear all too often from people with dogs that can’t be restrained by anything less than a cruise ship anchor, after their “loving family pet” has mauled a grown man to death in a park, or dismembered a toddler in their own home?
People often compare this argument to the argument against guns in America, however, a gun is not an autonomous animal capable of physically overpowering its owner and firing itself at will; dogs are.

@Wolfiefan if the majority of owners were the irresponsible sort, there would be hundreds or thousands of dog attack deaths per year, there aren’t, the majority of dog owners are responsible, however, there is no reason someone should have the right to own a particular breed of dog if that dog breed has been proven capable of massive harm. There are other breeds to choose from for people who want a dog and just like those ones, just because they have a preference for muscle bound mutants doesn’t mean they need to have that breed, they can either not get a dog, or get a sensible bloody breed.
An Akita lover who just wants a pet can get a shiba inu, they’re the same bloody thing but smaller and much less capable of killing people. People who want XL Bully dogs because they like them and want a pet could just as easily get a well bred English staffie or small bulldog.
XL Bully dogs are massively over represented on the list of killer dogs for a reason, and it’s not just the people who buy them for bad reasons.

Staffies were the weapon dog of choice after dobermans, Rottweilers and shepherds, and before pitbulls. Walked with ironwork at the neck, and intimidating.

When they lost favour to pitbulls they became family dogs again. They are lovely, but probably capable of nastiness in the wrong hands, and strong and resilient. It fails the 'can I kick it away' test, because it's solid and not a wimp.

Lurches and greyhounds have vulnerable areas around the belly, so can be kicked away in desperate need. They don't have the covering muscle and fat that protects other breeds.

We license guns, even though there are people who live outside the law. Guns are far harder to police than dogs, and yet we manage it.

If we license specific breeds, people with them can be reported and the dogs can be removed. It really isn't that hard.
We know where these dogs are- they aren't kept under beds or in drawers.

They are weapons- trained as weapons, kept for that purpose. License/ban them.

@FirstTimeNameChanger ironically, yes, they are. Dalmatian’s have a high third party claims rate for severe bites.

@Jenzine

This is all just your opinion though, on what breeds are bought to ge intimidating and what breeds aren’t...

Nobody is buying chow chows to intimidate people IME, plenty of people buying breeds you don’t list though, GSD’s, malinois, huskies, malamutes, Dutch herders, oh and lurchers btw, lurchers are pretty common as status dogs on some areas, because they can do double duties as intimidating and lamping.

@troppibambini6 "Mine frequently intervene if me of dh are chasing or roaring at the kids in a game as they don't like it all. If they ever come on the school run they cry when the kids go into school."

That's nice but... they might intervene if visiting children play like that, but not be inhibited by knowing them! That's really not great. I was bitten by the neighbour dog because I stepped too close to the neighbour. Luckily only a warning bite. Just broke the skin and bruising.

Be careful with that protective streak.

No one is saying they deserve it just the observation if they made better choices they would have this . People make choices about their lives all the time and I don't see this as any different .

Wouldn't

@tabulahrasa so I have to list every single breed that people buy for intimidation purposes or can we all just agree that there are certain breeds that fall into the centre of the Venn diagram of breeds that are often used to intimidate and breeds that are on the list of fatal dog attacks? Lurchers aren’t on the list because they’re fragile and wimpy, sure they’re used for illegal hunting by dicks, but they’re not “fighting” other dogs in parks next to children’s play areas with gangs of young men in hoodies jeering and baying as the dogs lunge at the ends of their leads. People doing this with their American bulldogs inevitably lost control of their dogs and they ganged up on an elderly lurcher named Louis and his equally elderly owner who suffered a hip fracture because of it. The lurcher ran away (because they’re speedy wimps), not exactly the intimidating dog in that encounter.

I actually broadly agree that as a rule people have the right to make decisions I personally wouldn’t or decisions that I personally believe to be unwise.

This is a bit different because it has high potential to harm those who did not make that decision. If you look through the lists of fatal dog attacks over the last couple of years there are some heartbreaking ones on there. I do not believe anyone’s right to own a particular breed supersedes the right of other people and animals to be safe.

And all the whataboutery that inevitably appears on these threads is always ridiculous. Anyone with half a brain can see which breeds are responsible for fatal attacks against humans, again and again and again. And it is not Dalmatians, lurchers or spaniels.

“Lurchers aren’t on the list because they’re fragile and wimpy, sure they’re used for illegal hunting by dicks, but they’re not “fighting” other dogs in parks next to children’s play areas with gangs of young men in hoodies jeering and baying as the dogs lunge at the ends of their leads”

Except they are...

There are no cases of lurchers fatally killing a human in the UK, that’s why.

It’s not whataboutery, it’s that the issue is on the other end of the lead.

There are dangerous and safe breeds of dog, there are dangerous and safe owners.

@tabulahrasa the fact that you think lurchers are intimidating might speak to the fact that the lurcher community as a whole has had a schism, thanks to…. Oh yeah! Adding fucking BULL BREEDS to certain lines. (Bull lurchers for people not in the know, are lurchers in the vaguest sense of the term, true lurchers are sighthound x pastoral breed I.E terriers/collies, bull lurchers are sort of an open secret as the claim is that they are bred from pit bulls, and those are the types people who like to intimidate other would choose, lurchers should be sighthounds with a bit of intelligence, bull lurchers are fast bull terrier mixes.) it’s no coincidence that the rise in incidents with “lurchers” coincides with the rise of the bull “lurcher”. No genuine lurcher (sighthound x pastoral breed) is nearly game to nor bred for the tenacity it takes to fight, they’re more of an ambush predator of small furries.

@tabulahrasa and the dangerous breeds always end up in the hands of the dangerous owners, somehow 🤷🏻‍♀️

There are dangerous and safe breeds of dog, there are dangerous and safe owners

Most fatal dog attacks are against the owner.

I honestly don’t really know why people are so determined to ‘prove’ that many dogs are capable of terrible, fatal damage, when anyone can cast a cursory eye over the breeds that appear time and time again.

Should read there are no dangerous and safe breeds of dog 🤦‍♀️😂

Agreed. A wolfhound in the wrong hands would really worry me. It’s totally about the people here.

Oh, there are dangerous breeds of dog. I think most of us would be wise to apply caution to all dogs, especially where small children are concerned. But there are a tiny number of breeds that appear in the fatal attack lists, overwhelmingly bull breeds.

Still, none so blind as those who won’t see.

There are too many dogs in this country. So sick of all the faeces. And they're terrible for the environment. If net zero isn't a joke they have to be reduced in numbers.

Point is, bully xls should absolutely be banned but dog owners in general should be reduced.

@Giltedged they're always the people least affected by it, or the people who have them and don’t want to admit that they wouldn’t actually be able to control their own dog if push came to shove.
there’s always a level of smugness to the people who own them and have the “it’s the owners not the dogs” attitude, as if they like being “proven” better owners than other people, even if their own dog is just a ticking time bomb and their picture asleep with the dog on the sofa, cuddled together, won’t be the next one on the front of a news report with the words “loving family dog kills owner in shocking attack”

No wolfhounds feature on the list of fatal dog attacks in the UK, as I’m sure you know.

Do you know what else appears really commonly in fatal attack lists?

Dog was acquired x number of weeks before and dog had a history of behavioural problems.

@Giltedged that they’re so insistent that the wolfhound is terrifying but only if other, shittier people own them, is just evidence to me that they want to be seen in control of a big “dangerous” dog. No wolfhound is scary, they just aren’t. They’re big, and they’re physically capable of harm, but they don’t have the breed specific drive for fighting that bully breeds do. If your particular breed of dog is genuinely capable and wants to do massive harm to people, there’s no justification for owning them. Wolfhounds are one, but not the other.

I agree