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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Bully breeds

312 replies

Jenzine · 08/07/2023 21:36

There are many understandable concerns regarding these types of dog, and as a dog owner myself, I have taken to avoiding places that I’ve encountered them, as a precaution, because dog aggression is common in them as a breed instinct, just as ratting is to terriers and herding to collies.
Areas I can walk my dogs (I always walk them individually, I don’t trust other people’s training of their dogs, and want to be sure that I can manage any situations that arise, which is always infinitely harder when walking multiple dogs) are vanishing at a fast pace with the baffling popularity of these mutants.
Defenders of these dogs always claim it’s the owner not the breed, however there are bad owners of every breed and most breeds still aren’t killing people fairly regularly. There also seems to be no consideration among the defenders and deniers that even if the dog is genuinely nice and loving, that it could become unwell (brain tumours, neurodegenerative conditions, general sickness) which can make even the friendliest Labrador have a sudden change in behaviour.
If any of my dogs, god forbid, ever get poorly in a way that makes them react aggressively, I know that I’m physically capable of preventing serious injury to myself and others by restraining the dog; I don’t believe the same could ever be said of an American bully XL or their owners.
All this to say, what is the justification for an otherwise reasonable person (not the drug dealers and chavs buying status dogs) with or without children to get one of these dogs? Just “liking them” surely is not an acceptable answer when weighed against the lives of human beings? What can they offer as a companion animal that you cannot get from any other breed of dog that you are actually physically capable of controlling?
How are these enormously heavy and powerful dogs not automatically in violation of the dangerous dogs act just by existing as a creature capable of exerting about 240kg of force at the higher weights of 60kg (dogs being capable of exerting force at 4x their own weight)? I don’t believe any human is capable of controlling these animals physically, and verbal control of dogs is never 100% and as someone with a lurcher, I know that no matter how well my dog recalls in general situations, the moment her prey drive is activated, she will not even hear the command to be able to follow it, which is why she’s only off lead in enclosed fields.

I don’t believe in any of the myths about these dogs perpetuated by either side (E.g the locking jaw myth of the anti-bull breed brigadiers, or the nanny dog myth of the staffy/APBT nutters) dogs are dogs, they can be good/bad, well treated/abused, but I don’t believe that owning dogs is a right, I believe it’s a privilege that is too often abused, even by well-meaning people.
How many times do we have to mourn children and adults before “[dog’s name] has never done this before!” Is no longer something we hear all too often from people with dogs that can’t be restrained by anything less than a cruise ship anchor, after their “loving family pet” has mauled a grown man to death in a park, or dismembered a toddler in their own home?
People often compare this argument to the argument against guns in America, however, a gun is not an autonomous animal capable of physically overpowering its owner and firing itself at will; dogs are.

OP posts:
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11
ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 09:36

@tabulahrasa

Gameness is a bloodsports term that refers to a dog's willingness to fight, its enjoyment of fighting and refusal to quit under any circumstances.

It isn't related to 'prey drive', but pitbulls do clearly have a very high prey drive towards anything weak/vulnerable - e.g. babies, toddlers, elderly, cats, dogs, etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameness

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 09:42

“Pertaining to working terriers and other small hunting dogs, earthdog trials are used to determine the dog's gameness in hunting dangerous pest species underground. The American Working Terrier Association currently offers a Certificate of Gameness (CG) title[4] which is more of a basic prey drive test. During the 1800's and early 1900's countless advertisements could be seen of gamebreed Fox terriers, Cairn, Sealyham, Bedlington, Glen of Imaal, Dandie Dinmont, Scotch, Skye terrier just to name a few in which the term gameness was used. [5]”

You might want to actually read the link you posted.

Working terrier - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_terrier

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 09:51

The opening paragraph makes clear that it doesn't refer to prey drive.

"The term gameness is often misused when witnessing a dog with prey drive. To see gameness is to overcome mental and physical challenge for the willingness to win."

You've misread the section you've quoted.

The American Working Terrier Association currently offers a Certificate of Gameness (CG) title[4] which is more of a basic prey drive test.

i.e. it isn't actually a gameness test and is actually testing prey drive.

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 10:06

“During the 1800's and early 1900's countless advertisements could be seen of gamebreed Fox terriers, Cairn, Sealyham, Bedlington, Glen of Imaal, Dandie Dinmont, Scotch, Skye terrier just to name a few in which the term gameness was used.”

As I said, traditional usage would mean prey drive.

Saying a breed has high gameness means very little, it’s basically a nonsense word.

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 10:37

I'm sorry, but you're very misinformed. Gameness is a definite thing and is seen in abundance with pitbull breeds.

This is a link to a very distressing video of a dog fight. One dog's face has been ripped off, but it is still desperate to get back into the fight. It ignores the injuries, pain, blood loss and risk of death. That is gameness.

Pitbulls will not quit. They continue to attack until they kill or die.

The gameness, combined with their physicality, is what makes them so dangerous. Once they are in attack mode there are only two 100% reliable methods that force a release - choking until unconscious or killing the dog. Would you like to try choking a 70kg XL Bully that's actively mauling a child?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/11ju324/pits_face_is_half_torn_off_but_that_doesnt_stop/

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 10:43

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 10:37

I'm sorry, but you're very misinformed. Gameness is a definite thing and is seen in abundance with pitbull breeds.

This is a link to a very distressing video of a dog fight. One dog's face has been ripped off, but it is still desperate to get back into the fight. It ignores the injuries, pain, blood loss and risk of death. That is gameness.

Pitbulls will not quit. They continue to attack until they kill or die.

The gameness, combined with their physicality, is what makes them so dangerous. Once they are in attack mode there are only two 100% reliable methods that force a release - choking until unconscious or killing the dog. Would you like to try choking a 70kg XL Bully that's actively mauling a child?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/11ju324/pits_face_is_half_torn_off_but_that_doesnt_stop/

No, I’d like to stop people breeding dogs they have no business breeding and people owning dogs they have no business owning.

Because if you’re at the point of trying to stop a dog mauling a child it’s pretty irrelevant if it’s a “high gameness” Xl bully, a resource guarding cocker or a Jack Russell who’s decided a baby might be a rabbit... you’re kidding yourself if you think you can stop any of them.

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 10:48

I can easily overpower and punt/throw a jack russell over the nearest fence. I could also easily pin or lift a cocker spaniel to end an attack.

A pit bull in attack mode is a ferocious beast more akin to a panther, black bear or lion.

To claim that all dog attacks are the same is ridiculous.

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 10:51

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 10:48

I can easily overpower and punt/throw a jack russell over the nearest fence. I could also easily pin or lift a cocker spaniel to end an attack.

A pit bull in attack mode is a ferocious beast more akin to a panther, black bear or lion.

To claim that all dog attacks are the same is ridiculous.

No you couldn’t.

People struggle to even break up minor dog fights. Anyone who thinks they can overpower a dog during a serious or fatal attack is just wrong, by the t

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 10:51

By the time you’d have made contact it’d be too late

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 10:53

11 years of dog bite stats from America tell me that the pitbull ban has been very effective in the UK and needs to be extended to Bully XLs.

Bully breeds
AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride · 17/08/2023 11:10

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 10:51

No you couldn’t.

People struggle to even break up minor dog fights. Anyone who thinks they can overpower a dog during a serious or fatal attack is just wrong, by the t

In my experience most people go very "rabbit in the headlights" when there's a dog scrap, which is a huge barrier to breaking up a scrap between even a pair of Jack Russells, when all that's actually required is to pull one out by their collar.

Of course it's not going to be physically possible to pull an XL Bully out by their collar, but most people won't even try with a small dog.

My little terrier cross got himself into a few scraps during his misspent adolescence, so I've perhaps more experience of this than I would like. It's only ever been handbags at dawn and zero blood, before anyone starts on me.

On the topic of gameness - I reckon mine would do quite well in the earthdog trials someone linked to - it's a shame they're banned in the EU because he's excellent at detecting rats. Likewise, he needs to be the one pulled out of a scrap as otherwise he'll just keep going for it, as his dog walkers discovered when another dog decided to start a fight with him - they pulled the other dog out and then had to let that one go and grab mine instead 🙄

This gameness thing is in no way limited to pit bulls - even dachshunds are one of the breeds able to compete in earthdog trials and get a certificate of gameness in the US. It seems an odd obsession that's developing on this thread with gameness.

AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride · 17/08/2023 11:22

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 10:53

11 years of dog bite stats from America tell me that the pitbull ban has been very effective in the UK and needs to be extended to Bully XLs.

There are lots of differences between the UK and USA in terms of how we keep dogs, the culture around them and so on. There's also more pit bulls in the US than there ever were in the UK.

You'd do better to compare UK statistics pre and post BSL; we've seen a rise in dog bite fatalities since then.

BSL is largely opposed because it involves killing dogs which have good temperaments, and extended periods in police kennels. The inconsistency around what's considered a pit bull (in some cases you can have two puppies from the same litter - one deemed pit bull type and the other deemed otherwise.

A less brutal and more evidence led BSL programme would be equally effective and have less opposition - temperament testing post adolescence around age 2 (the result of which could be normality, requiring a muzzle in public or euthanasia), compulsory sterilisation, and compulsory courses for anyone who owns a large bull breed. Compulsory insurance too...

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 11:28

Please watch the videos I previously posted regarding pitbulls.

There are hundreds of cases of 'good temperament' pitbulls snapping, mauling and killing people. The breed needs to die out. There is simply no need for anybody to own any pit bull type dogs. Get a normal dog FFS.

Thosesummernights · 17/08/2023 11:37

I feel like a broken record on this but I’ll say it again… spend a few minutes on FB or free selling sites and you will find post after post from people wanting to rehome their XL bully.

It’s the same story each time. “Not enough time, too energetic, needs more training, not good with other dogs/cats, not socialised with kids, change of situation”. It’s utter bollocks. People see the cute puppy and buy without any thought. No research, poor home environment, lack of money to get in professional help/training. These people shouldn’t own ANY dog, let alone such a powerful breed. It’s an accident waiting to happen. These people shouldn’t be allowed to own a dog. The Breeders don’t bother to do home checks (it’s all about the £££). So there have to be multiple barriers in place to fix the issue: ban the breed, mandatory suitability checks/training for owners before buying a dog, mandatory insurance, breeders to ensure mandatory home checks are done - make the dog owning industry regulated. No one is entitled to own a dog.

This will make people stop and think before taking on a dog. Even those whose hearts are in the right place but still don’t bother with insurance and then set up a go fund me when little scamp is injured or unwell as they don’t have the funds to pay for it. A lot needs to change now every Tom, dick and Harry has a dog.

AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride · 17/08/2023 11:44

ThisOldThang · 17/08/2023 11:28

Please watch the videos I previously posted regarding pitbulls.

There are hundreds of cases of 'good temperament' pitbulls snapping, mauling and killing people. The breed needs to die out. There is simply no need for anybody to own any pit bull type dogs. Get a normal dog FFS.

No one is going to admit to knowing that their dog was a liability well before it mauled someone - that's not going to look good in court. I always take the "he's lovely to the family" type statements with a very large pinch of salt, as many dogs are nice to the family and feral to anyone outside it.

Professional temperament testing is rather more independent and objective.

Mandatory education around, for instance, managing child-dog interactions with safety in mind (don't leave them unattended, body language etc) would also be a big improvement... I'd like to see this for all dog owners of all breeds though.

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 13:21

Compulsory insurance too... Pretty tricky seeing as most insurance companies won't touch them with a barge pole. Says it all really.

Thosesummernights · 17/08/2023 13:55

Absolutely @CellophaneFlower why is that I wonder

tabulahrasa · 17/08/2023 14:08

AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride · 17/08/2023 11:44

No one is going to admit to knowing that their dog was a liability well before it mauled someone - that's not going to look good in court. I always take the "he's lovely to the family" type statements with a very large pinch of salt, as many dogs are nice to the family and feral to anyone outside it.

Professional temperament testing is rather more independent and objective.

Mandatory education around, for instance, managing child-dog interactions with safety in mind (don't leave them unattended, body language etc) would also be a big improvement... I'd like to see this for all dog owners of all breeds though.

Yep, people aren’t ever going to say, well I’m a bit clueless and I thought I’d try teaching him to do protection, or do you know, actually I don’t understand dog body language and what’s involved in looking after a dog or theres been a whole load of issues, but I ignored them... or I’ve been abusing and neglecting him...

Even when neighbours are saying they’ve called the police about the dog before because there have been incidents - the owner still goes, pfft, completely out of character, came out of nowhere. 🤷‍♀️

AlwaysTheSupplierNeverTheBride · 17/08/2023 14:17

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 13:21

Compulsory insurance too... Pretty tricky seeing as most insurance companies won't touch them with a barge pole. Says it all really.

Well, yes, but Dogs Trust does do third party liability insurance for any breed.

I'd still want to see compulsory health insurance as ill health is so frequently the cause of behaviour problems.

However, if insurance was compulsory and the premium charged reflected the risk then it would hopefully put people off who can't afford them in the first place

ThisOldThang · 18/08/2023 21:49

"A spokesperson for South Yorkshire Police said: ‘It is believed that the victim, a 28-year-old woman was walking her dog down the street, while pushing her child in a pram when she was approached by a loose dog."

What other dog breeds roam the streets looking for victims to maul?

All pitbull type dogs need to be banned.

tabulahrasa · 18/08/2023 22:35

ThisOldThang · 18/08/2023 21:49

"A spokesperson for South Yorkshire Police said: ‘It is believed that the victim, a 28-year-old woman was walking her dog down the street, while pushing her child in a pram when she was approached by a loose dog."

What other dog breeds roam the streets looking for victims to maul?

All pitbull type dogs need to be banned.

What because all the other dog breeds are in the office at that time of day?

It didn’t steal a key and let itself out of a house did it?

CellophaneFlower · 18/08/2023 22:48

More attacks here last month. 3 in the space of a week in Merseyside. Poor little girl just playing in a gated play park 😢

They WILL be banned but it's just a question of how many innocent people will be hurt or worse before then.

Week of dog horror as girl, 7, and man, 60, mauled by XL bullies

Merseyside has been rocked by three XL bully-related dog attacks in the past seven days

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/week-dog-attack-horror-girl-27384126#amp-readmore-target

ThisOldThang · 19/08/2023 17:02

When a Golden Retriever gets loose it doesn't go looking for victims to maul, but that's standard behaviour for these bloodsport dogs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/ixpr1o/pitbull_attacks_a_little_girl_in_a_school_parking/

Reddit - Dive into anything

https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/ixpr1o/pitbull_attacks_a_little_girl_in_a_school_parking