Unethical breeders?

[Explainthis]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but grateful to anyone who can enlighten me.

I am looking for a dog and it's a very unpleasant experience. The 'reputable breeder' of lores just seems to be a very elusive entity.
The search for one has taken me to sinister puppy farms, there are quite a few around where I live, I've discovered. Is it the same everywhere? Just one look at the 'father' or 'mother' makes you want to weep.They places are not difficult to find, can't they be regulated at all?
I am now hoping to adopt a KC registered older dog who's been used for breeding all his life and then taken to the vet by the breeder to be PD. This is standard practice with some breeders apparently. What's the point of the KC if all it does is add value for the breeder but no protection for the dog?
The internet is full of puppies that are obviously being bred for a quick buck in all impunity. Dogs are being imported from the continent, no question asked about the life that awaits them here.
Why is there so little control over unethical breeding practices?
Please tell me why nothing can be done, or how to do something about it.

I don’t have the solution but you really don’t need to scratch far below the surface to get red flags.

It’s KC registered as much as non. It’s horrible when you want a puppy for various reasons rather than an older dog, but everywhere you turn there’s just puppy farmers who lie.

I don’t think the limits on registering litters do any good. Because the unscrupulous ones just keep breeding the bitch and flogging the puppies for only a couple of hundred quid less unregistered. But on paper the bitch hasn’t been over bred.

The KC is more about money than promoting healthy breed standards. There are laws governing dog breeding but you'd be surprised how many people would buy without even a basic check with the council for a licence. They're not interested in how well the dogs are cared for on a daily basis, they don't want to know how many years of learning has gone into knowing the breed. They just want a cute face or a status dog.
What upset me most recently was the state of a rescue centre- poo everywhere, dogs caged in the house, dog poo on the floors in the house, dogs in kennels that were unable to be reached due to the nettles and brambles that were overgrown. The same rescue group also breed pups without a licence and get away with it by declaring the bitches were already in pup prior to being rescued?

If you really want to find an ethical breeder ask around for recommendations. Talk to the breeders before visiting, and definitely before meeting any puppies. If you don't like what you hear and see then walk away.

Thanks for your replies @LolaButt and @ImJustNotMeAnymore .
Rescue centres breed puppies??!!
I have actually walked away from a lovely puppy in one horrible place, it was hard and I still question my choice but rewarding these practices? The puppies were getting big so he was prepared to take less money. He has a brand new litter now. He'll have another before Christmas probably.

There used to be dog licences, what were they and why did we get rid of them?

KC registration really doesn't mean anything anymore - certainly not in terms of animal health or welfare.

It doesn't take much to get a dog KC-registered. You just need proof they're pure-bred and that the mum has only had a certain number of registered litters before a certain age.

Lots of people will have (for example) pure-bred cocker spaniels and pure-bred poodles. They can get three KC-registered litters from each - but to make more money, they'll breed mixes, or un-registered litters on top.

Loads of dogs of all ages in rescues. As with people breeding /breed is no signifier of decency. Local rescues are inundated currently so no shortage of options

Which rescue please

The best approach imo is to contact the official breed club and buy a puppy from one of the committee members. Make sure the parents are show dogs and have won awards that you can verify.

So are there any ways to reduce/stop this abuse?

It's just too easy to buy anything you want from a dodgy breeder, they will even deliver the dog to you.
It's no good telling people to adopt when it's ridiculously difficult to do so.
And no good telling people to buy from good breeders when no real controls are in place.
Any idea?

All you can do is do your research and be fully prepared to walk away if the set-up is dodgy or if there are any red flags.

It's an average sized operation in Norfolk. They've been reported to the rspca.

The breed clubs are as money driven the KC! They're also incredibly cliquey.

Yes - report the establishments to their local Council licensing team. There will be contact details on the Council’s website. Breeders should have a license from the Council and adhere to the standards of the Animal Rights Act. The Council should investigate complaints or unlicensed breeding establishments.
You’re doing the right thing not buying a puppy from these places.

Adopt don't shop
Don't encourage breeding
No decent person breeds a dog to make money
It's wrong

You know I was all in favour of adopting. But I wanted a pet and no rescues would give me a dog because I have kids under 5. Some even said the kids had to be at secondary school before they would rehome a dog with me. So I had no choice but to buy one.

Breeders who show their dogs don’t make a profit from breeding. They spend so much on showing the dogs that they barely break even.

I am now hoping to adopt a KC registered older dog who's been used for breeding all his life and then taken to the vet by the breeder to be PD.

Have a look at Many Tears, who take a lot of ex breeding dogs, largely to avoid this problem. www.manytearsrescue.org/

Rescue centres breed puppies??!!

Unfortunately there's absolutely no regulation on who can call themselves a rescue centre. There are some crap rescues which are essentially good people who have ended up out of their depth because they don't know when to say 'no', and others where there are deeply unethical people who claim to be a rescue and pull stunts like breeding puppies. When spotting the latter, tell tale signs include (but aren't limited to) frequently having puppies available, and charging rehoming fees that are significantly above what other rescues are charging.

Generally speaking, however, if you can identify a shit breeder then you're more than capable of identifying a crap rescue.

What breed are you looking to get OP?
In my case I did lots of breeder work I was lucky in that I got a relatively sane puppy but the breeder really was an asshole and the next time Id not indulge that kind of breeder any longer.

I don’t disagree with you, but unfortunately a lot of KC dogs with champion parents are sold for a really high value.

If you want a dog, but don’t have thousands to pay I don’t think it’s fair to make it out of touch for people who would give a dog a lovely home.

There needs to be a better system for people who want a well bred dog whose parents are health tested etc who are happy to pay a reasonable price.

Thank you everyone for your replies, I'm learning quite a lot here, sadly not very nice stuff.
@LolaButt @thelobsterquadrille you've totally disillusioned me about the KC's role in breeding, I thought it was an indication of good practices. At least you can find minimal information about a registered dog on their website, the coefficient of inbreeding on some litters can make interesting reading I find.
Is it possible to end up with the right paperwork but the 'wrong ' dog or do microships prevent that?

@AnotherLongDay @ImJustNotMeAnymore The two council websites I'm looking at offer no way to check a breeder's registration online for a start, if you have to go out of your way to find the information not many people will bother.
I've skimmed over the schedule of conditions for registration, it's a hard read, they don't seem to expect a lot; 'a cage big enough for the animal to wag its tail?'
If anything, it looks like a list of ideas for horrible and lucrative practices.Terrible.

@AnotherLongDayWhat should I report or complain about? I haven't seen anything per se, no maltreatment or anything like that at all.
The puppies were very thin but lively and bright, the 'father' looked absolutely pitiful. The 'mother' was busy elsewhere.They said they had 30/40 dogs but the whole place was incredibly quiet. I couldn't get precise answers to my questions and they couldn't produce the paperwork 'at that particular time'. I didn't even go there in a critical frame of mind, it's just this mounting feeling, whist I was there, that this was not right.That's not a much to go by, is it? What if I'm wrong and cause trouble to good people?

Thank you @SurpriseWombat I've put an application for the dog I'm talking about so hopefully I've already found my match. 🤗

The Many Tears website is interesting, because they give a lot details about their dogs. A huge amount of their dogs come from breeding farms.

So once these breders are finished with the dogs and have probably ruined their health, they can dump them at the vet or a rescue, no question asked, and go away and do more of the same? Is this really how it works.

The whole dog breeding system is broken and I don't know what the answer is. My immediate thought is to completely ban any dog breeding, except dogs bred with the intent to be used as assistance dogs/police dogs. Policing that would be hard but something needs to give. Rescues are at capacity and things are only going to get worse with the cost of living crisis. I volunteer at a rescue and it breaks my heart every visit knowing I can't help all of these dogs because many of them need such specific homes now due to stupid people owning them and then dumping them.

Something I do know, dog breeders do not need a licence unless they are having more than 3 litters a year. I was a dog home boarder and was inspected by the council for my license and got chatting with the inspector regarding breeding and he was as disappointed as me that so many puppies could be born to someone without a licence. Also, it's hard to prove who is having more than 3 litters a year, especially if buyers pay cash in hand. This needs to be scrapped immediately and I personally believe you should not be allowed to breed dogs (or cats for that matter!) without a full license and inspection. This isn't practical at the moment though, because there's simply nobody to do the inspections and nobody to police it.

I'm sorry OP, I don't have much advice, other than chat to local people to see if they recommend anyone. Also, report report report all the bad places you've been to. Report to the council and to the RSPCA. I'm not saying they'll do much, but even if 1 in 10 of the bad ones get shut down due to your report it's something rather than nothing. ❤️

It’s a nightmare.

We lost our rescue dog over two years ago. We’ve been trying to rehome since. We have a cat. That’s a big barrier. We’re very experienced and active members of a training club. Active. Our life revolved around our dog. But there has always been someone better (we work but from home). We’d like a younger dog as we’d like to get back into training and active holidays etc.

so we’ve started looking at puppies. Not a designer breed. Working. Not traditionally farmed. Not any more. We’ve viewed multiple litters and all bar one have been dealers. We’ve reported them to the relevant council. One we nearly fell for and I’d consider myself experienced and savvy.

we’ve been on lists with breeders but that’s not come to anything. The breed club have been unhelpful. The breed welfare have been brilliant but openly admit that cat friendly is a challenge.

having only had rescue animals I knew things were bad. But I was unaware of how bad until I started looking. I think Covid has played a part.

Im glad it’s not just us. I was beginning to wonder.

personally I’d not touch MT knowing people (I trust) who have had dealings with them.

good luck in your search. We’re running out of steam a bit.

@Springblossom2022 It's completely hopeless isn't it? Greed takes over, animals are helpless it's a nightmare equation.

@Newpeep are you looking for a spaniel? There's a breeder near me that ticks all the right boxes on their website.

The rule about 3 litters has changed since 2018, it’s now different. However it is up to Councils to enforce, if people report premed is they should get looked into

If the father was pitiful, mother not present and no paperwork, that is against the regulations so you could report based on that. If a Council checks up on a breeder and finds everything in order it won’t cause trouble for them. They should be ready to receive an inspection at any time. The 2018 regulations are stringent and decent. Obviously it depends on Council enforcement and reports from the public will help this system work :)

Honestly no decent breeder would not have the mother or paperwork available for a potential purchaser, that’s so basic, so I would say your gut feeling is right