Unethical breeders?

[Explainthis]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but grateful to anyone who can enlighten me.

I am looking for a dog and it's a very unpleasant experience. The 'reputable breeder' of lores just seems to be a very elusive entity.
The search for one has taken me to sinister puppy farms, there are quite a few around where I live, I've discovered. Is it the same everywhere? Just one look at the 'father' or 'mother' makes you want to weep.They places are not difficult to find, can't they be regulated at all?
I am now hoping to adopt a KC registered older dog who's been used for breeding all his life and then taken to the vet by the breeder to be PD. This is standard practice with some breeders apparently. What's the point of the KC if all it does is add value for the breeder but no protection for the dog?
The internet is full of puppies that are obviously being bred for a quick buck in all impunity. Dogs are being imported from the continent, no question asked about the life that awaits them here.
Why is there so little control over unethical breeding practices?
Please tell me why nothing can be done, or how to do something about it.

What breed are you looking for, @Explainthis. Perhaps starting with a breed club would improve your chances. From the places that you are looking for puppies, I would assume you are looking for a popular breed, which are clearly marketable, and will make it all the harder to find a reputable breeder.

@AnotherLongDay thank you, I will report my concerns now. The 'paperwork' they offered was a joke, it was an isolated (I live in the middle of the sticks so not usually concerned by that) scary place, to be honest it felt like a stupid idea to have gone there on my own.

One of the only positives of the cost of living crisis is that it will ruin the absolute stupidity of the general public buying dogs.

Without the demand the supply chain will collapse because it will be pointless. All these so called breeders who think they are doing the dogs a favour by having litters. Come on, its financial gain, plain and simple. Unfortunately it is going to result in lots of dogs being put to sleep but hopefully it will also result in loathe end of these breeders cash cows.

I spent a bit of time looking at dog rehoming yesterday. I was utterly dismayed at how poor the system is. Considering how we are hearing about dog centres being overrun, i was not presented with hundreds/thousands of dogs. Where on earth are all these dogs and why are they not on line, ready to be rehomed?

@Whitney168 Thank you. The puppy search has made me reassess, so I've applied for an older dog with a rescue and should be visiting shortly if all goes well.
I do know an excellent breeder for that breed (Dobermann) so will either get the rescue dog or wait for one of their litter. My mistake was to not realise how unique that breeder is. I've certainly learnt that!

Not something MN agrees with:
But a lot of small, decent home breeders stopped doing so when the breeding license was introduced.

Councils made them jump through hoops by installing fire doors, organising separate waste disposal and questioning well established procedures of puppy raising. Plus the fact that you are only allowed to keep X amount of dogs in your home. So if a girl had 4 litters, she needs to be re homed if you want to continue breeding...
Meanwhile anyone who has 10's of dog in kennels and breeds as a commercial entity is fine.

@Tessasanderson Buying a puppy is a very emotive experience and people get carried away and don't really think, I think that's why unethical breeders get away with murder.
At that puppy farm I felt they expected me to be overwhelmed by cuteness, pay, take the dog and go away quickly.

Maybe have a look at Many Tears?@SurpriseWombat linked Many Tears upthread, they have a lot of dogs on their website.

@Ylvamoon but surely 4 litters is more than enough for one bitch in one lifetime?

Totally agree. I have a couple of dogs and love them to bits. TBH i dont want another but was trying to see how bad things were. TBH i was a bit disappointed that although we hear there are hundreds of dogs available, this wasnt reflected on the websites. Dog rehoming centres need to improve their online service tenfold imo.

You say this like its a bad thing for them to jump through a few hoops. Small, decent home breeders are a select minority who have been overun by corrupt, money grabbing, home puppy farmers. Most are just in it for a £1000 a time cash in hand puppy sale.

@Explainthis thanks for that link, having a look now. 205 entries :-)

@Tessasanderson Yes but I wonder why they have so many ex-breeders and puppies?🤔Sorry for second thoughts.

@Explainthis - 4 litters is enough, but the issue is what is happening afterwards.

Breeders are forced to re home due to the number of dogs they are allowed to keep under licence conditions. Decent breeders don't necessarily want to re home and choose to stop breeding.

@Tessasanderson - it is a bad thing if you are looking at the cost and effort involved. The licencing has turned a hobby into a commercial business. Many people who breed specifically for the show ring or k9 sports as their hobby are priced out of breeding. Hence making space for the MN favourite no go "backyard breeders" who charge a economically viable price for a puppy.

@Ylvamoon When you say 'only allowed X amount of dogs in your home' is it dogs living with you inside the house or on your property? How many dogs are allowed?
'Meanwhile anyone who has 10's of dog in kennels and breeds as a commercial entity is fine.' What a surprise, not.

Many Tears is in Wales which is puppy farm central and has set up contacts over the years to take on ex-breeders or unsaleable pups that would otherwise be disposed of. They get stick as seen as enabling these breeders but tbh Im not sure what the alternative is, would the breeders even get vets to euthanise the unwanted given that costs? At best maybe passed to other unsuspecting buyers and then end up in another rescue when realise vet bills or an ex-breeder needs are more then anticipated.
I follow a rescue in Ireland and they have so many young pups & dogs dumped daily. Even seen few English rescues with litters of puppies that have been surrendered lately, presumably as markets dropped off with cost of living crisis.

@Explainthis - it's on your property. Obviously a home breeder would not be keeping the dogs in kennels.

This is exactly what I don't understand - these breeders are known so it should be one strike and you're out, you give up dog(s) to a rescue, banned for life from dog ownership or at the very least from breeding? To back this up you shouldn't be able to breed and sell dogs without a licence even in a domestic setting. And the there's the whole question of imports as well...

I meant in kennels on the property?

I agree here. Licencing could so easily be simplified for the sort of family who breeds a single litter from their bitch to keep one, uses a health-tested stud and so on, or someone who has several working bitches and breeds each one maybe twice (so a litter every two or three years). There could be a system where you pay a fee, take a basic test, report to the council when your bitch whelps and have a 50% chance of being inspected to ensure that you are providing care that meets an approved standard. You could then advertise with some sort of assurance mark.

It used to be that a council licence was a red flag for a bulk breeder, but not any more.

It used to be that a council licence was a red flag for a bulk breeder, but not any more.

Agree - it used to be far easier to tell people looking for a puppy to avoid licensed breeders like the plague. Now there are many good breeders who have been required to have a licence (and this is not consistent across different councils either), things are much muddier.

Gosh this thread makes very sad reading. The puppy market is saturated at the moment and my friends who would normally breeding top class puppies with all the bells and whistles of health testing etc are not this year. So the market is skewed towards people who are doing it for the money.

I am breeding the absolute best I can and have sold all my superb puppies without any problem. But honestly, I’ve been disappointed by the quality of buyers as well. People are not doing any research and I’ve spent quite some time on phone calls with people giving them information that will help them buy elsewhere safely.

The majority of emails have been one liners from people asking if I have puppies and how much, and no more . Most of the buyers that I’ve turned down have been first timers and my dogs are just not suitable. People are obsessed with red pedigrees with no understanding of what that means.

Taking traumatised ex breeders from Many Tears is just supporting the puppy mills, not making things any better for the future of puppies. When I think about how much effort and care goes into the first 8 weeks from a good breeder, that’s the thing that sets the dog up for life.

Taking traumatised ex breeders from Many Tears is just supporting the puppy mills, not making things any better for the future of puppies. When I think about how much effort and care goes into the first 8 weeks from a good breeder, that’s the thing that sets the dog up for life.

What utter nonsense. Many Tears isn't propping up the puppy farmers; they don't pay for the dogs they re-home.

What do you think would happen to ex breeding dogs if it wasn't for places like MT? They'd be shot, though some of the lucky ones would be put down by a vet. It certainly wouldn't stop them breeding.

It's not that long since an estimated 10,000 greyhounds were found shot and buried in one field. That didn't stop the greyhound racing industry either.
www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jul/17/animalwelfare.world?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

MT are doing their best to clear up the mess made by others. By your logic, the organisers of a community litter pick are causing the littering, and if only they stopped litter picking then businesses would stop producing packaging that might be littered.

Lots of people talk about a dog licence for owners which I in part agree with, but a separate issue.

One of the ways animal owning could be improved is that all litters whoever bred them are registered, with the dogs microchip being more meaningful than just contact information.

It could be used to monitor breeding, health tests etc and applicable to all dogs regardless of KC. Then they could create meaningful legislation to cut down on the horrible practices.

@Difficultdora Yes it's so very sad.
I think most people do not realise how bad things really are: the natural assumption is that wrong/unethical practices are just not let to flourish in all impunity. They just assume the breeder knows best, whoever they might be.

'Taking traumatised ex breeders from Many Tears is just supporting the puppy mills, not making things any better for the future of puppies. When I think about how much effort and care goes into the first 8 weeks from a good breeder, that’s the thing that sets the dog up for life."
I know and I agree, but what to do? The dog I'm looking at is from another rescue, they seem genuine, but what do I know? I know I would indirectly be supporting a puppy mill by taking this older dog from the rescue, but her is a dog who is owed a decent life for the short time he has left. I think.

What are your dogs @Difficultdora ?

@SurpriseWombat And I also agree with you 😳
These greyhounds, how awful. I had blocked that memory for sure.
We're such great dog lovers aren't we.

That's a great idea, compulsory microchip with all health information on the microchip.
And a centralised database with all this information.