Unethical breeders?

[Explainthis]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but grateful to anyone who can enlighten me.

I am looking for a dog and it's a very unpleasant experience. The 'reputable breeder' of lores just seems to be a very elusive entity.
The search for one has taken me to sinister puppy farms, there are quite a few around where I live, I've discovered. Is it the same everywhere? Just one look at the 'father' or 'mother' makes you want to weep.They places are not difficult to find, can't they be regulated at all?
I am now hoping to adopt a KC registered older dog who's been used for breeding all his life and then taken to the vet by the breeder to be PD. This is standard practice with some breeders apparently. What's the point of the KC if all it does is add value for the breeder but no protection for the dog?
The internet is full of puppies that are obviously being bred for a quick buck in all impunity. Dogs are being imported from the continent, no question asked about the life that awaits them here.
Why is there so little control over unethical breeding practices?
Please tell me why nothing can be done, or how to do something about it.

Following with great interest!!

That's a great idea, compulsory microchip with all health information on the microchip.And a centralised database with all this information.

Would this actually work in the real world? We have enough trouble as it is getting people to microchip their dogs and (crucially) keep them up to date with address details.

There's also a freeform section on my dog's microchip that you could use to list medical issues (e.g. a dog on regular medication) or anything else a rescue would need to know immediately if your dog came in as a stray.

But would it change breeding practices? Unlikely.

Microchip records aren't open to the general public so backyard breeders couldn't check it.

Ethical breeders will already be doing all these checks (a lot of the tests needed for breeding are things like checking if they're a carrier of a certain gene).

Unethical breeders will mate the dog regardless of what it says on the microchip - after all, all you need to get puppies is a bitch in season and an intact male. Some would even go so far as you avoid vet treatment to avoid it showing up on their records.

Cage big enough to wag their tail? Try 8 square metres of accommodation for a labrador, 4 square metres for a spaniel. Keep two together? Add in half as much again! My two kennelled spaniels have a bigger self contained heated room than I do, and their personal run is 18 square metres on top of that. Not all people who are licensed breeders keep their dogs in boxes, nor do they pass on their animals once they reach the end of their 'usefulness '.
What many licensed breeders are sick of is people selling badly bred animals either with a licence or without. I could tell you stories from the other side of the fence that would make you question everything you ever thought you knew about dog breeding, rescue, retraining, vets.

@SurpriseWombat No it wouldn't change everything overnight. But say, if that register became first port of call when looking at a dog, you'd be able to spot if the litter was on it or not to start with, and the parents health history. You can check so many things online now when years ago you had to trust someone with the information they would give you, I don't know, cars for example.
The point is, why shouldn't microchip records be available to the public? you don't have to view all the owner's details. Trying to get the test results from breeders feels like pulling teeth sometime, even when everything is in order, surely that would make things easier for everyone?
I agree it wouldn't prevent a whole underworld of non-microchip breeding and dogs not being seen by a vet but then people would know that no microchip means something dodgy.
I mean, it's such a mess that no solution is going to be perfect.

@ImJustNotMeAnymore This was on the council recommendations for breeders to obtain their licences that I read this morning. The level of expectations was so horribly low that it read more like a list of terrible idea for unscrupulous oportunists.

'Not all people who are licensed breeders keep their dogs in boxes, nor do they pass on their animals once they reach the end of their 'usefulness '. I assure you I do not believe that and am sorry if this is how you've read the thread, it's not like that at all. Many dog people treat their animals better than they treat themselves and of course that includes dog breeders! I don't think it's an easy job to be a breeder if you're doing it right, surely you have to love what you're doing to be any good at it.

'What many licensed breeders are sick of is people selling badly bred animals either with a licence or without. I could tell you stories from the other side of the fence that would make you question everything you ever thought you knew about dog breeding, rescue, retraining, vets.'
I am here for it.

I bred a litter last year to get a daughter from my show winning, gundog trained (and worked), fully health and dna tested bitch.
I used an international show champion dog who now works on a shoot, also fully health tested and the COI for the litter was zero. Both parents have exceptional temperaments.
The puppy I kept has qualified for Crufts next year and is even nicer than her mother.
I won’t be in a hurry to do it again.
To do it properly is SUCH a lot of work. I had the litter in the house, I housetrained them, socialised them with children (I didn’t have any at the time, had to borrow them), other dogs, household noises, strangers, fireworks, gun shot. Enriched their environment with puzzles, inclines, chews, had a different one on the sofa each night to watch the tv. Took them in the car, and not just to the vet.
I think that’s why nobody’s doing it properly, because it’s a huge effort for not much profit, in fact none at all if you count taking them to shows, training them to work etc, then you’ve got the worry of where the puppies go, and the commitment to take one back at any point in their lives.

Really enjoyed reading your post, and thanks for the gorgeous picture, what beauties! @bollocksthemess, I thought as much. I mean how easy is it to look after and educate one puppy properly when you get it at 8 weeks; not very, so what about a whole litter from birth? Before that there's the knowledge about the breed, the confidence you have in the parents characters and of course the health of both. (super impressed with your CoI of 0% btw). Plus the worry about gestation and birth. Then going through people, hoping for the best. All this not for the faint hearted. I'll leave that to those who can and have done for ever, thanks, it's a beautiful thing, but best left to those who know what they're doing.
The trouble is a lot of people think it's easy, and do a bad job, and carry on doing it.

It is immoral and wrong to ever buy an animal from any breeder. Don’t do it. If you’re so worried about the state of things, it’s because people buy from breeders! Don’t buy them and they won’t exist.

Always rescue. Wait a long time if you have to. Nobody is entitled to an animal. Going to a breeder because one wasn’t instantly available at a rescue is still immoral, and incredibly selfish. The reasons you might struggle to get a rescue is probably because you aren’t suitable to have animals in the first place. Not everyone is. Or you have to wait awhile to be matched to a dog that can handle your noisy family or small children. If you don’t want to wait, you probably shouldn’t have an animal.

I hope your rescue works out OP.

For anyone who thinks the rescues aren’t operating the way you think they should, volunteer, donate, help. They’re run on nothing and are absolutely overrun with animals. Go and help add them to the website yourselves!

It is immoral and wrong to ever buy an animal from any breeder. Don’t do it. If you’re so worried about the state of things, it’s because people buy from breeders! Don’t buy them and they won’t exist.

And then, in 10-15 years, neither will dogs ... is this really what people want when they make this ridiculous statement?

There are many different types of breeders, and I am absolutely on board with educating the public to only buy from caring, conscientious breeders like @bollocksthemess. Good puppy buyers also deserve the opportunity to buy a dog that will be (as far as any living creature can be) predictable for temperament, size, appearance, coat care requirements and fit in to their family. They must take the responsibility for doing the work to increase their chances of this by researching breeders and walking away from those that don't measure up.

There are far too many puppy buyers though who don't care where a puppy comes from, how it was raised, how its parents are kept, whether the breed/cross is bred to be completely genetically deformed to ever live a comfortable life - and clearly there are also lots of buyers that good breeders would never sell a puppy to, so they just go to the endless supply of bad breeders.

The dogs that are in rescue are primarily not from good breeders - and where they are, it's because the owner either ignored the contract that the breeder will always take the dog back or didn't think they really meant it. I know many breeders who have taken back dogs they sold as puppies when they are very elderly dogs and ensure their comfort through to the ends of their lives.

And then, in 10-15 years, neither will dogs ... is this really what people want when they make this ridiculous statement?

How can you type that, seriously. Animals don’t need our help or humans creating a profit making business to fuck and procreate. You are being ridiculous! Do you think there was always this huge industry? Whatever it takes to keep breeding them, right? No most dogs in rescues are abandoned. Do you work in rescue?

Genuinely, how can it be ethical to breed animals when there are animals being put down in shelters all the time?

What's ethical about breeding animals for money?

Nothing.

I would LOVE to adopt a dog. I have only ever had rescues. However, a 6 year old DD (completely animals savvy & respectful of ALL animals) & the lack of a 6ft fence means no can do. I am a ‘death do us part’ owner & my DDog & cat are loved beyond belief but despite rescues bursting, they won’t allow me to give a home.

they won’t allow me to give a home

If you don’t pass the experts checks for suitability, have you considered it’s not in a dogs best interest to live with you? You aren’t entitled to one.

It all comes down to the entitlement of humans, people want dogs for companionship and they want them now. Not when they can afford a properly bred dog, not when thier children are old enough for a rescue dog etc etc.

My DS was attacked by a dog who had a miserable life with an owner who couldn't be bothered to put the effort in to care for it properly. Dogs are powerful, they can kill or injure people if they aren't treated right, so it is madness that people can own them without any sort of licence or checks. If people need to obtain and pay for licences, hopefully a few more 'have a go' owners who have no clue what they are doing will be dettered from owning a dog. At the very least councils need to put more resources into stopping backyard breeders, a quick Google leads you straight to them, they are working in plain sight.

I honestly don't see this changing until we pay less for dogs.

Reduce the value and the unethical breeders will not longer bother. It's the £000s price tag that's attracting them and people are paying those prices.

£5-10k+ for a litter. That's the lure.

And, in my opinion, one of the key reason people pay so much for a dog is that there is an ever-growing idea that dogs can cure all your ills. As pp said, they are seen as the ultimate companion who will cheer you up, get you fit, get you lots of followers on SM, keep your kids entertained and so on.

Not everything thinks that. Not every dog does that. But enough that 'get a dog' has become the go-to solution to far too much. It's unfair on the dog and it pushes up the value. People paying astronomical prices for unusual colours or extreme features because they look cute. Pugs being the classic example of a breed that has attracted so much social media posts because their faces look cute: regardless of the fact that their faces are a form or breeding torture to them. French bulldogs, similar. Chihauhas similar. English bulldogs also. Lewis Hamilton posts his online all the time and I don't doubt he loves him, but it is a extremely poorly bred dog that should not be asked to live life in the body he has. Legs that do not sit strongly under his body but bend out at that "classic" angle. A face far too short for breathing or eating or fitting his teeth. A body that is so wide he was almost certainly born by caesarian section because he would not fit through his mother's pelvis. And Lewis is not the only one by a long shot.

(NOTE: I'm not saying everyone with these breeds thinks like this, or that there are not some people actively breding/looking for less extreme versions of these breeds).

Not enough people want a dog to be a dog. If they did, they'd be less popular. They are barking, digging, chewing animals with a mouth full of teeth and love of rolling in fox shit. No one would pay for that unless that's what they wanted.

Then you can't have a dog. I can't have a tiger, even though I think that would be really cool. You can't have everything you want.

Well actually yes I can, I would have to ‘buy’ one from a breeder. However, I would 100% prefer to give a homeless one a home.

So you're holding dogs in shelters to ransom and supporting a pet trade that sells living beings like toys to spoilt adult children.

I "can" have a tiger but I'd be doing a selfish disservice to the animals and animals in a wider context just like you will be when you support the pet trade.

But yes, you are right, you "can".

You’re suggesting nobody should ‘buy’ a dog but instead only get one from a rescue. However, there are a large proportion of ‘spoilt adult children’ that these ‘bursting at the seams’ rescue centres won’t home to despite it being a forever, loving home.

That isn't dogs' fault and so the answer shouldn't be to then support a pet trade which harms dogs.

It's a long and difficult process to adopt a child but if I was not deemed suitable to adopt the answer wouldn't be to go and buy one from someone sick enough to be selling children as though they are things and not living beings who should never be bought and sold like commodities.

I realise the position could be considered extreme but I believe it's faultless in its morality. There is no ultraism in buying and selling animals.

Then you can't have a dog. I can't have a tiger, even though I think that would be really cool. You can't have everything you want.

This made me laugh! I do actually want a horse, maybe 2 or 3, but I don’t have a suitable place so I can’t have one. That’s life.

If you actually believe in rescue centres and think breeding is wrong, you won’t just buy from a breeder because you can’t get a rescue. That’s spoilt and would be against your principles. The only people buying from breeders are those that don’t care about the harms and the many many dogs made homeless because of them and their selfish spoilt attitude. It isn’t just about what you want, or even about the fact you may love the animal. It’s about the rescue centre making sure they give the animal the best possible chance at happiness in a home that has love, yes, but that also understands the dogs needs, all of them. It’s really hard to make those decisions and to give an animal to a family only to have it returned is heartbreaking for the animal, but also the rescue. The costs and care needed to get it ready again are greater than the first time.

Child adoption agencies don’t put blanket bans such as ‘no other children under 8’. They’re driven to get the children in homes so they assess potential adopters on an individual basis. My 6.5 YO DD has grown up with our dog & cat & has the utmost respect for them & all animals. I know not always financially possible but if they ‘considered’ each home separately then maybe they’d rehome more.

I absolutely agree with you about ‘buying’ animals but I have a wonderful home to offer but because my DD doesn’t quite fit the criteria, the dogs are sat in kennels. Whereas magically in another 1.5years, we’re good to go!

Sure adoption agencies don't do that but my point stands and the example is basically IF you can't adopt you don't then go 'fine them I'll buy a kid! Who cares if that hurts kids in general I want a kid and I'm getting a kid!'

Surely the dog homing places will listen to reason? I'd be campaigning if I was a dog person. I might when my cats die, who I adopted off Gumtree, and need to go to a shelter because I love cats and want to live with them and if homes don't let me for whatever reason I'll be trying to change the reasoning if it's the right thing to do. What I would never ever do is buy a cat from a breeder because that person sells animals for profit and when you do something for profit the thing you sell becomes nothing more than a product and you always become compromised and put profit over morals.

Animals feel pain and experience suffering, they are not things.

We’ve always had pedigree puppies from very reputable breeders like bollocksthemess I have no interest in going to rescue. We specifically buy breeds that are known to be very healthy and long lived no ridiculous distortions and except to be carefully scrutinised by the breeder. We also very research the breeder very carefully, the breeds we have chosen over the years reflects how we live, we used to own working dogs when we owned 200 acres and the dogs we outside all days, now we’re not older and live a different life we own companion dogs. Over 40+ years of dog ownership we have provided life long loving home and receive regular comments on how happy well adjusted and behaved our various dogs have been. I buy pedigree puppies because I know what I’m getting what the breed traits are and thus how these traits will fit in with our lives. I make no apologies for this, and I’m sure there are many other like me who feel the same.