Unethical breeders?

[Explainthis]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but grateful to anyone who can enlighten me.

I am looking for a dog and it's a very unpleasant experience. The 'reputable breeder' of lores just seems to be a very elusive entity.
The search for one has taken me to sinister puppy farms, there are quite a few around where I live, I've discovered. Is it the same everywhere? Just one look at the 'father' or 'mother' makes you want to weep.They places are not difficult to find, can't they be regulated at all?
I am now hoping to adopt a KC registered older dog who's been used for breeding all his life and then taken to the vet by the breeder to be PD. This is standard practice with some breeders apparently. What's the point of the KC if all it does is add value for the breeder but no protection for the dog?
The internet is full of puppies that are obviously being bred for a quick buck in all impunity. Dogs are being imported from the continent, no question asked about the life that awaits them here.
Why is there so little control over unethical breeding practices?
Please tell me why nothing can be done, or how to do something about it.

I make no apologies for this, and I’m sure there are many other like me who feel the same.

Of course you don’t and yes there are billions of people exactly as selfish as yourself who, like you, are responsible for stray and homeless dogs suffering needlessly. You want a perfect dog who fits your image of how a dog should be. Shame you can’t order children that way huh.

Firstly dogs are not children. I find the parallel frankly ridiculous. I’m not disputing that dogs don’t feel pain happiness etc but they are not and never will be for me as important as my children.
Secondly I am not responsible for “strays and homeless dogs suffering needlessly.
Thirdly I don’t want a dog that fits my image I want a dog that fits my life style, breeds that are working dogs (and remain my favourite breed) need plenty of exercise and stimulation, that worked well when I was in my 30’s, we owned what I would describe as “yard dogs” outside running around on a farm from 8 am to 10 pm at night. They slept in a barn at night.
Now life has changed I believe it would be cruel to have a large energetic dog so we own smaller less energetic dogs this has nothing to do with image it’s all about what it best for the dog this is responsible dog ownership.
Fourthly we’ve never paid £1000s for a puppy although I have no problems with reputable breeders making money out of breeding. But I’m most cases I suspect little is made health tests stud fees vaccinations showing parents carefully rearing puppies is time consuming and expensive.
Lastly Im coming at this from a different point to view for example if you breed a quality sound horses it’s value is significantly higher, thus the breeder makes a greater profit, than if you breed rubbish ditto cows/sheep. So maybe very reputable breeders who are dedicated to a particular breed who are aiming at breeding healthy happy well socialised quality puppies and making some profit maybe should be encouraged. We should not be tarring all breeders with the same brush because of the existence of puppy farms and legislation with too many loop holes.

I am not responsible for “strays and homeless dogs suffering needlessly.

Yes you are. You support an industry which results in an excess of animals and all the less than perfect impure breeds end up homeless. That’s on everyone like you.

Parallel isn’t the word you’re looking for. It’s analogy. I value dogs as much as humans so I think supporting any industry that harms them as evil as supporting industries that harm children. Yes, evil.

Sorry I’m not evil my two happy healthy dogs would testify to that if they could!
Anyway what happens in you dystopian world when all the dogs in rescue are rehomed in happy loving homes and then die of old age none are being bred there won’t be any dogs left. Not the sort of world I want to inhabit.

The only way to stop these unethical breeders is REPORT them and don't buy a puppy from them.

I hope you're reporting these places that you find.

Anyway what happens in you dystopian world when all the dogs in rescue are rehomed in happy loving homes and then die of old age none are being bred there won’t be any dogs left.

This is stupid whataboutery. Like I said earlier, animals procreate without our help but we are a long way off your silly scenario.

Yes the act of breeding and buying dogs is evil. I stand by that. Most rescuers will think the same, they’re left picking up the pieces of this selfish disturbing industry.

Wow Wow @WahineToa why should bad owners/breeders prevent good owners/breeders from raising healthy, happy dogs? A bit extreme.
Rescues sometimes make mistakes and the dog is returned, so it must go both ways, they pass on people who would be good.
And for all the good they do, rescues are enabling bad breeders and bad owners, that's the unpalatable truth. The rescue is going to find a nice family for furbaby, right? Thank goodness rescues are here, but part of their role is to be abused within a very broken system. The people who are trying to re-home a dog are not the problem, you know.

I'm with @DangerNoodles when she says At the very least councils need to put more resources into stopping backyard breeders, a quick Google leads you straight to them, they are working in plain sight. This is were we need action, that would help.

Incidentally, I think that in the US you visit a rescue, chose or get chosen by a dog and you're all set? It would be interesting to compare welfare outcomes between the UK and US adoption systems.

why should bad owners/breeders prevent good owners/breeders from raising healthy, happy dogs?

Because breeding dogs is immoral, especially when there aren’t anywhere near enough homes for the ones we have.

@WahineToa No it's not. Breeding irresponsibly and/or taking on a dog and letting it down is immoral.
Do you think stoping good breeders is going to affect the bad ones? Even more business for them.
Do you think it will stop the imports of dogs from abroad? Have you seen that kennel in Poland in the news recently?

Supporting and regulating good breeding practices and making anything else unacceptable to the public would be a lot more helpful than insulting dog lovers.

Supporting and regulating good breeding practices and making anything else unacceptable to the public would be a lot more helpful than insulting dog lovers.

No. banning all forms of breeding and having tough sentencing and proper policing would be more helpful. I don’t care about the feelings of anyone who supports breeding. You love dogs conditionally. To me that’s immoral. As long as people here have conversations about the awesomeness of breeding you will get people like me sharing the opposing view.

Luckily for those of us who believe in good breeders, and the well bred healthy breeds of dogs they breed no one is going to pass legislation supporting your very extreme views which are thankfully very much in the minority.
I do think that something needs to be done about the many grossly deformed unhealthy dogs that are being bred by both puppy farms and what would be considered breeders but sadly I doubt that will happen. Whilst Joe Public loves to see these extremes they will be bred. Maybe you should channel your energies into that?

@WahineToa You love dogs conditionally. To me that’s immoral. As long as people here have conversations about the awesomeness of breeding you will get people like me sharing the opposing view.

Ok, thank you.

no one is going to pass legislation supporting your very extreme views which are thankfully very much in the minority

as awareness grows so does the group opposed to breeding. This never used to be talked about 10 years ago and now plenty of people rescue. One day it will be banned.

10 years ago there wasn't such quantity of irresponsible breeding@WahineToa nor was there such a market for dogs as accessories, that's why rescuing was less common you see.

I don’t agree, as someone involved in rescue. The celebrity support for rescuing in recent years has helped a lot.

Can I point out the simple fact that most dogs in the UK live very controlled lives? Many of them are neutered. Very, very few completely and genuinely accidental litters are born, and if your mad idea of banning, fines etc came to fruition, people would be so worried about landing up in court that even more dogs would be neutered and even fewer accidental litters would be born.

So, within a few years, your options for a dog would be an overseas rescue (and IME those are a massive lottery) or, er, no dogs at all. All those working spaniels whose population underpins the existence of drug and explosives detection dogs - gone. All those high-drive dogs bred for the protection sports, whose population underpins the existence of police and military dogs - gone.

I have personally known three breeders who have taken a dog back. One found the dog a new home, another kept the dog until she died, the third currently has the dog and is still deciding whether to keep her and bring her into work, or re-home her. These are not the breeders you should be having a go at. You are very blinkered if you think that all breeders and all breeding is the same.

Many of them are neutered

Because we breed dogs we control, or not, fertility.

You are very blinkered if you think that all breeders and all breeding is the same.

They’re not all the same but they’re all breeding. I’m going to say with almost 100% certainty I know a lot more about this than you do.

I don't understand why people criticize dog rescues for having strict criteria, they don't owe every person who approaches them a dog. When you adopt a dog, you adopt any problems caused by thier previous owners. They don't know for certain if a dog has never bitten someone for example. If a rescue won't adopt to you, it will be for good reason.

I was referring mainly to those annoyed about rescues who do not adopt to people with small children. There have been a few stories lately of rescue dogs turning on young children, the rescues obviously do not a repeat of those situations.

I see that you've not answered my main points:
if we outlaw breeding we will soon end up with no dogs
If we outlaw breeding we will soon end up with no police or military dogs
The problem is not with the people who will take back dogs that they have bred and either give them a home for life or find them a new home. This means that even if they are breeding, which is not a crime, they are not the underlying cause of dogs being in rescue.

I have lived with dogs for getting on for 40 years, and do a lot with mine. Consequently, I know maybe half a dozen people who breed a litter every few years in what I consider to be an ethical manner (you, obviously, will disagree). I am not exactly an ignoramus when it comes to dogs and, as I said, breeders are not all the same.

The adopt don’t shop message - is it really doing anything to push some breeders into ethical breeding? I don’t think it does as it doesn’t address the awful practices some engage in.

Yes, rescuing a dog should be the first entry point when considering adding a dog to the family. But most people know that. The people who don’t ever consider it are the people who need to be guided.

But this conversation is about ethical breeding, not predominantly for the buyer but for the actual dog. That’s what this thread should be focussed on. How can things be made better so less animals end up abused and in rescues.

Extremism isn’t the answer here. Outlawing breeding isn’t a practical solution. So what could be a viable positive step in the right direction? One option is only allowing breeders to sell through one official source, where they’re properly vetted, their breeding numbers are properly limited and there are strict penalties for people breeding and selling dogs outside of this process. Again, going back to the microchip point, these ‘unofficial’ dogs would at some point be identified and steps taken to ensure that they were in the correct home.

Not a perfect idea. But it’s a start that moves the conversation to a helpful alternative to extremism.

Thank you @LolaButt !!!

There are NO ethical breeders.
People making money off the reproductive systems of animals are not ethical.

kennel club has “verified” or some such breeders, they sign up to bitches only having two litters, have home checks etc.

still not a guarantee, but better.

i started with that, then narrowed down to those actively involved in showing, or other dog training/competition type activity. Again no guarantee, but more likely they breed for themselves not to sell puppies.

stalked a lot on the internet, and rang round.

went to see a local lady. She shows, and had a litter about 5 months old that she’d bred for show. Other breeders had reserved two, and she was going to keep the other two to show herself, but one didn’t make the breed minimum size.

visit was crazy, mum obviously not interested any more 😂, lunatic puppies, one very old lady took up residence on my knee, drooling copiously and refusing to move. I nearly took her home she was so sweet. Clearly she kept all he older dogs, and was able to tell me how many litters, who was grandma and who was related to who.