I’ve had enough

[Hotchocolatewithcream]

I’m a regular poster but name changed.

I’m not sure what I am hoping to gain from this thread, just an outlet to talk/vent I suppose as I don’t really see a solution to the problem.

I feel that I have reached the end of the line with my dog, my patience has largely gone and I feel she would do much better with someone else.

I have said to DH today that I think I should contact some rescues and try to have her rehomed but he isn’t at all keen and thinks it’s a heat of the moment thing and I’ll feel differently later.
I’m not so sure.

In short, she is aggressive around other dogs.
It started roughly when she hit maturity, she’d had a number of negative experiences prior with other dogs but it was one particularly traumatic experience with other dogs that seemed to really trigger it and she was never the same with other dogs since.

I’ve always thought her behaviour was a direct response to her experiences and not genetic but I'm no longer so sure.
I did see her mother who was really lovely but I didn’t see what she was like around other dogs.

After the traumatic incident she started off growling when other dogs were nearby and if at the vet she would lunge at them aswell but that was the only place she’d lunge.
Any other time she’d just growl at them but only if they came close, otherwise she’d largely just ignore them.

From there it escalated, she started tensing up and giving out aggressive signals - direct stares, vertical tail etc as soon as she spotted another dog in the distance on lead.

Sometimes she’d greet another dog fine, other times she growl or lip curl and other owners kept assuring me it was fine, she was just setting boundaries, they needed telling off etc so I didn’t take much action believing it to be normal.

Eventually it became clear she had issue with pretty much all dogs for no easily identifiable reason and I sought help.

She got worse.

Eventually I gave up trying and kept her 100% leashed and well, well away from other dogs.

She got better in that she no longer reacted to the sight of others, she was non reactive around them but would growl at them if they tried to approach her so I started letting her off lead again and would recall her if other dogs were approaching her (she would never approach them)

Not ideal but I accepted some dogs just don’t really like others, she wasnt actively going after them or hurting them or anything so I didn’t consider her dangerous and it was easily manageable.

Recently I started giving her a supplement for anxious dogs and it had a miraculous effect.
Suddenly she was actively choosing to go and say hello to other dogs, choosing to walk with them with or without interaction.
Completely her decision with no influence from me, I would go to walk away from them and she would trot off to go join the dogs and I’d have to change direction and follow her.

I started to relax and actually enjoy my walks and she has been bouncier and more ‘carefree’ than normal.

Yesterday she had a great time.
We were out for hours, she made friends with a big, bouncy dog and greeted loads of others really nicely and walked very happily with them all.

Today.
We’d had a really lovely, long walk, she’d greeted a few dogs perfectly nicely and we came across a small group of fairly large but very calm dogs.

She went to approach them but then seemed to slow down and go a bit tense.
I recalled her and the other owner started telling me it was fine, her dogs were fine etc.
Mine then walked over and two of the other dogs came over to sniff her, she suddenly went for them.
I don’t mean a little growl or a lip curl I mean full on lunge forward snarling and snapping at their faces.
I don’t know if she made contact but it was incredibly loud and frantic and aggressive sounding, one of the other dogs yelped and she raced forward a few paces chasing the dog.

The owner couldn’t have been nicer, I was very upset and apologetic.
The dogs she’d gone for seemed utterly unconcerned about what had just happened but her behaviour has really shaken me.

I no longer feel it would be safe to have her off leash anymore as I don’t feel I can trust her anymore not to properly go for or hurt another dog.

I know she’ll be really upset as she hates being on lead, she lives for racing for miles, jumping over hedges, picking up branches and any old random junk and trotting around carrying them proudly.
She won’t be able to do any of that and I feel really guilty.

But I don’t feel I have any other option.

I feel like I’ve failed her and she needs a much more knowledgeable home with a more experienced owner.

Thanks @nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut Some good tips there.

@Delatron just be aware of what posy said. If they are a large breed dont let them build up speed. Otherwise you go flying. If they do, grab it up and pull them round in a circle back towards you. Dont do it with a normal collar either in case they hurt their neck. You want a harness with a chest clip, never a back clip otherwise the canny fuckers realise they can lean on it to drag you.

Thanks, yes I have a harness. My issues is he’s a big lab and is very quick. So he builds up spoed before I have time to grab the line or I grab it and arm nearly comes off!

I think I’ll just have it trailing and try and step on it. I could never get the hang of reeling him in. He just bolts at high speed.

Mine are labs too have you tried a halti? I had one and it was really good but he ate it.

😂 I have one somewhere but never got round to using it.
Might resurrect it!

Jesus!
The OP has come on here asking for support and advice. It's often hit with dogs ( trust me I've interacted with many) Some forget that animals, like humans have 'off' days. They can go to events, family get togethers, doggy crèche all can go fine. Some days a dog may just come bounding up to play and your dog thinks "nope"
OP you sound like a responsible person, you've tried your best. It's true that your dog will pick up on your unease. Then they'll think you're worried or afraid, and they will go into protective mode.
Some dogs don't like certain size/ breed of dog. Some don't like being bounded up to and having their personal space invaded.
I would let your husband walk her for a couple of days as you're upset and quite rightly so.
If you are absolutely sure you want to re-home them just bear in mind that she will be going to kennels possibly, and as a dog with "issues" . I have an idea of the breed, and just to reassure you I have seen many many people come through my professional life with dog/animal bites. We always ask the breed, and it's no surprise now, most of them are dogs that everyone has this bizarre belief that they are the most wonderful family dog.
There are good and bad traits in all animals. People too. It's mostly bad owners, but it can be the individual dog. It's unfair to blame a breed.
Some dogs are just not always sociable.
You also get these thoroughly annoying people in their Hunter wellies stomping accross parks, fields, with their dogs off the lead thinking they own the right to have their dog being a bloody nuisance because they think it's so superior in its training and recall. Yet it approaches yours, scares yours, causes a reaction and they're breezily "oh she's fine" that's as maybe, but what about the fact that your dog may have trauma issues from being attacked at one time, or just unsure. It's never clear cut.
Try and see what your husband walking her is like
Good luck, and hey chin up, Cufts wannabees are two a penny. They don't always know everything.
All the best x

hit and miss

@Delatron

Thanks, yes I have a harness. My issues is he’s a big lab and is very quick. So he builds up spoed before I have time to grab the line or I grab it and arm nearly comes off!

I think I’ll just have it trailing and try and step on it. I could never get the hang of reeling him in. He just bolts at high speed.

The long line should only be trailed on the floor once you are pretty sure he will not bolt or speed off.

If he is at the bolting and charging off stage there is work to do and for your safety you need to have him on a shorter line. When training has progressed then you can move onto the long line.

I’ve spent 18 months training him, two personal trainers and a training course. Plus hours every week. Still can’t get him to not run to other dogs (which is strange he as he’s supposed to be fearful!)
Anyway, I fear I’m detailing the OP’s thread.
Lots of sympathy from me OP. It’s annoying when people just say ‘well train the dog better’. When you’ve spend months, even years trying everything.

One dog trainer even said to me ‘that’s as good as a 14 months old lab will be!’

*But the OP hasn't tried much

• CARE/positive reinforcement
• Behaviourists
• ‘Balanced’ training
• More exercise
• Less exercise
• Diet change
• Anxious dog supplements
• Keeping away from dogs
• Treating when seeing dogs
• Walking past dogs at heel
• 2 second greetings
• More mental stimulation
• Less mental stimulation
• Goodness knows how many of hours of dog body language videos/dog training videos/dog training books/dog behaviour books

Over years.
Not a few weeks or a few months.

No, I haven’t tried much at all really

But won't use a muzzle. Which would eliminate the issue.

But won't use a muzzle. Which would eliminate the issue.

Nonsense. Muzzles don't stop a dog being reactive - all they do is prevent bites. A reactive dog is a reactive dog for life, regardless of whether it wears a muzzle or not.

Stop coming on here and criticising someone who's clearly struggling. Living with a reactive dog is fucking difficult and OP needs support, not criticism.

Wind your neck in.

Well said @vanillandhoney.

But won't use a muzzle. Which would eliminate the issue
I HAVE used a muzzle before.
I said in a previous post I had introduced one using treats and she hated it.
Walked with her tail tucked and head down behind me.
When I let her off leash with it people were scared.
I am not doing it.

And in any case, it wouldn’t ‘eliminate’ the problem anyway.
If anything, if she was muzzled and went after another dog like she did the group there’s a good chance the owners would be absolutely furious with me as the (correct in this case) assumption would be that I clearly knew my dog could be aggressive and may go after others but selfishly thought I’ll let her off anyway and it’s okay if she terrifies them because she can’t bite them.
The dogs she went after didn’t seem too bothered afterwards granted but a more sensitive dog would have been really scared.

I feel you are completely over reacting here.
No harm was done, you seem to be projecting far too many expectations onto your dog, it’s not her job to help you socialise; that’s yours. Even the most tolerant dog can have a limit and she is likely to have been overwhelmed and tired when the snapping occurred, I certainly wouldn’t lose trust in my dog for that.
Rehoming her is selfish, a dog that loves to run dumped in a rescue kennel; hardly the action of someone who cares is it?
Stop making this about you, concentrate on your dogs needs and find yourself hobbies. I’m actually quite angry at your reasoning for giving her up; she’s disappointed you, you really need to adjust your thinking and put her first not your want to socialise.
Muzzle train her, plenty dogs are fora variety of reasons. Use the baskerville never a cloth one.

@Hotchocolatewithcream

But won't use a muzzle. Which would eliminate the issue I HAVE used a muzzle before. I said in a previous post I had introduced one using treats and she hated it. Walked with her tail tucked and head down behind me. When I let her off leash with it people were scared. I am not doing it.

OP you don't need to explain yourself to the critics.

You know your situation better than anyone

@SBTLove have you even read the thread or are you just piling on to make the OP feel even worse than she already does?

What do you think your post will achieve, exactly?

Op I think you are a very conscientious owner and I'm sorry to hear you are so upset by your current dog situation.

You've put work in and tried different things and you have both made progress. The thing is, your dog isn't a robot, she is bound to have good and bad days, just like humans. But please remember, progress with animal training is never linear it's often three steps forward, two steps back. Obviously I don't know you or your dog, but from what you have written here, it would be worth persevering. Things were improving, and there is no reason that they won't go on to improve again.

The main thing about dog training is never the training itself - that is important of course - but the trust and confidence and relationship between you and the animal. So I would recommend doing exercises that try and build that up - like teaching him dog tricks, or playing scent games at home - without the anxiety of another dog lurking about. Make sure that your main enjoyable interaction with him is not solely focused on walking and the leash.

And try and put this incident in to perspective. Your dog went for some other dogs in an aggressive manner but you said yourself "The owner couldn’t have been nicer, I was very upset and apologetic.
The dogs she’d gone for seemed utterly unconcerned about what had just happened but her behaviour has really shaken me."

So it wasn't ideal but the owner wasn't upset, the other dogs weren't upset, it is (in the nicest possible way) you who are upset. And your reaction is (understandably) a bit raw because, from a human perspective, these sudden incidents of explosive aggression between animals can be shocking. But that's because animals are honest and we humans cant cope with that and are socialised to mask our feelings.

It's not a given that your dog will become more aggressive after this latest incident. She may do. But equally, she may feel better having been allowed to express his displeasure, and that may mean she doesn't feel the need to do it so frequently from now on.

One thing to work on is recall, recall, recall. So if a similar incident occurs and you can see the same thing happening ie
"She went to approach them but then seemed to slow down and go a bit tense." you can call her away immediately and be certain of her following immediately.

It's easy to say, but keep going! Don't give up! I hope this doesn't sound too "woo" but try and do some meditation exercises before you leave the house so you are calm and happy. Maybe listen to some music while out walking your dog to distract you from your own sense of anxiety about what may happen as you go around the next corner and encounter a dog that is strange to you both.

Again, easy to say, but the only way to deal with this is your dog obviously needs to grow in confidence and become less fearful around other dogs. And that will diminish her aggression. Walking her constantly on a leash, away from other dogs, or in a muzzle, or other things some pp have suggested, is all about avoidance and managing the symptoms and not getting to the hub of the issue. I would highly recommend getting help from a behaviourist. A good one is money well spent because not only will they help your dog, but they will support you and "share" the problem with you, which will lessen your own anxiety as you will feel more supported and confident yourself.

Another idea (in addition to the trainer) is to perhaps let her have some supervised time in doggy daycare and allow her to interact with dogs (carefully controlled of course at the beginning) in a more playful setting without so many humans about.

Good luck

Sorry op, I seemed to have missed a page or so of this thread before I posted where you said

I have sought professional help (more than once) before and I’m not willing to do it again because I’m tired of seeing her getting worse and I’m tired of seeing apparent improvement then incidents.

As far as I’m concerned she is unpredictable and will never be reliably safe around other dogs.
My trust in her is completely gone.
This incident alone to me, proves that no matter what her body language is like, no matter how friendly and relaxed she appears, she can’t be trusted.

So a behaviourist would be absolutely pointless because no matter what they said to me, I don’t trust her anymore and would never let her loose again.

In that case, as you say, there is not a lot of point in continuing.

I have an extremely dog reactive bitch. I also bred her!

She has been like this from day 1. I socialised her as a young pup in non threatening, well managed situations, she has never had any frightening experiences. Basically her behaviour was completely disproportionate.

I'm a very experienced dog owner and her behaviour just totally stumped me. Her Mum is literally a model dog, exceptional behaviour and completely trustworthy. The sire was the same.

Anyway, initially I really struggled to get to grips with it. The first couple of years were rough. I worked with a behaviourist who basically advocated punishing her for reacting, whilst advising me to socialise her with as many dogs as possible - BAD advice. I only saw him the once.

I then set about changing my mindset, I accepted that her walks had to be carefully controlled. I knew that I wouldn't ever be able to desensitise her and her fear of other dogs, although baffling to me, was real and that was ok. I had to reach an acceptance.

I trained her (using food) to look and focus on me every time she saw a dog. Now we can walk relatively close to other dogs and she is mostly calm. However this is always on a lead, I know all bets would be off if she was off lead. So I never put her in that situation. The only time she is off lead is in a secure field where I can be 100% sure we will not encounter unknown dogs.

My advice? Don't bother with a behaviourist if the aim is to try and train her out of this behaviour. It's deep rooted and whilst she may be fine in certain circumstances, you just cannot predict when things are going to go wrong. I think I can reliably say that she is never going to be 100% with other dogs. So there will always be the element of risk and this will be very unsettling for you.

Are you in the UK? If so are you absolutely sure there are no secure fields that you could use? Even if you have to drive to use one? Have a look at dogwalkingfields.com - there are fields all over the country.

Rest assured that there are plenty of other people in the same situation. If she's an otherwise lovely dog to have around then please don't give up on her. You just have to manage your own expectations and what you thought dog ownership would entail, I get that can be very disappointing and hard to come to terms with.

@Delatron

Thanks, yes I have a harness. My issues is he’s a big lab and is very quick. So he builds up spoed before I have time to grab the line or I grab it and arm nearly comes off!

I think I’ll just have it trailing and try and step on it. I could never get the hang of reeling him in. He just bolts at high speed.

Mine's a 32Kg Lab and he is a VERY quick strong lad. We use a soft cotton long line (horse lunge line) the burns are less severe! Start with it short and just feed a bit out at a time. Don't let them have the whole line at once. We have to use a line as he gets very excited/or aggressive at other dogs (depends which dog) and just can't get him to recall away. So he spends a lot of time on his long line. We also hire secure fields so he can have proper runs. With hard word and lots of advice from a dog behaviourist (we worked with her in the past & is kindly giving us free advice & pointers) there is progress. It's not the end of the world if your dog has to stay on a lead or long line! Brain exercises wear them out physically, even more than physical exercise does. It's not what I envisioned when I got my puppy I had visions of long walks with him off lead & coming back when told, but it's the cards we have been dealt so will find ways to manage it

*work

Thanks @Leeeeeeeeeeeeeee cotton long line is a good idea!
I’ve also found a secure field 20 mins away. Just wish there was as one in walking distance! I’m happy to pay for peace of mind.

I’m coming to terms that long walks off lead, bounding through fields will be off the cards permanently.

Should have got a small dog!

@Delatron

Thanks *@Leeeeeeeeeeeeeee* cotton long line is a good idea! I’ve also found a secure field 20 mins away. Just wish there was as one in walking distance! I’m happy to pay for peace of mind.

I’m coming to terms that long walks off lead, bounding through fields will be off the cards permanently.

Should have got a small dog!

same here it's just a different experience to my vision. My trainer did say that by 4 or 5 years old he may have matured a lot & be easier to manage. The field we use is about 15 mins drive too but still a good compromise. Only problem is muddy dog and car! I've just bought a mud daddy though so he can have a wash down with lovely warm water before getting in the car. We were there yesterday & practiced recall

Yes I’m thinking of practicing recall in the field and more training. It seems to go out of the window when we see another dog in real life but will persist!