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Removing male dog (father) from house when bitch is giving birth and after?
theemmadilemma · 05/03/2020 21:14
I'm hoping someone with experience might be able to help, as at this point I'm confused by conflicting advice.
I'll give as much detail as I can that might be relevant.
Our male is newly seeing a behaviorist, mainly for attention barking, but also for lead pulling and some dislike of strangers/strange dogs. When she introduced herself to our dogs she did so in a way which I understand her reasoning behind (heavy rain/safety) but it meant she entered our home while we were inside with the dogs on leads. They're of a very protective breed and it set off chaos. In the chaos at one point my female directed slightly against the male dog.
The dogs are well bonded, often sleep close, rough house but never push too far.
Our house is very small and annoying open plan downstairs. It would be difficult to have the puppies and her upstairs in our spare room due to the noise and thin walls to next door (see attention barking issues). We could put a wide child gate between front room and lounge and remove some furniture for extra space, but no door.
The behaviorist has old us we must remove the male for 4 weeks. That having him there would make her stressed and anxious, they he may aggravate her and we will likely end up with dead puppies by stress or either dog. Obviously we sprang in to action.
So I called the kennels she recommended. After speaking with the Owner at length, the Kennel owner told me the opposite. That taking the male away was likely to cause more issues, as he'd be returning to a house with puppies that he's had no awareness of.
I'm worried he'll just jump the gate, be wanting in there all the time anyway.
We are seeking our vets advice also and am waiting on a call tomorrow, but I would so appreciate any experience from owners or breeders or anyone!
Ylvamoon · 05/03/2020 22:21
I don't think you know much about dogs or breeding... see if there is a kennel / vet nearby that offers a welping service.
They will look after your dam and the puppies until they are old enough to be moved on from tiny baby nursery to ferocious predator pen.
TeacupRex · 05/03/2020 22:23
I would listen to the behaviourist. If you can't guarantee that they'll be kept separate, it's the responsible thing to do. Males are often very attracted to the scent of bitches who have recently given birth (change in hormones) and he may not leave her alone. And I don't know what breed they are, but you say they are protective and that the bitch has redirected onto the male before, I would not risk it. Nursing bitches naturally are very protective of their pups.
Either way, the male is going to have a rude awakening when he sees new puppies in his house, whether he's been away for 4 weeks, or whether he has literally seen them birthed (definitely don't suggest that latter though, as this can put stress on the bitch). If you want to introduce the male to his puppies, it needs to be done gradually and carefully anyway.
I feel like the risk of stressing out the mother during the labour and those first few weeks (possibly resulting in deceased puppies) outweighs the chance of the male maybe being a bit put out with the new arrivals. And he will likely be pining after her scent, which is not fair on a male dog. I guess there is a reason why breeders often do not own the stud dog along with their bitches.
fivedogstofeed · 05/03/2020 22:30
Genuinely no idea what the norm is.
However, deciding to breed from a male who needs a behaviourist....wow.. I hope the buyers of the puppies are made aware.
Herpesfreesince03 · 05/03/2020 22:35
So your male is under a behaviourist and the female has attacked him. Why the hell are you breeding them?
TeacupRex · 05/03/2020 22:43
And yes, you are about to get slated for breeding dogs with iffy temperaments. But the horse has already bolted.
theemmadilemma · 05/03/2020 23:25
I'm aware of the idiotic situation. It certainly wasn't planned. And yes I know very little.
However it is what it is, and that's why I am looking for sound advice from every resource I can to do the best thing for both dogs.
Appreciate those who have given constructive helpful feedback.
bluebluezoo · 05/03/2020 23:35
I'm aware of the idiotic situation. It certainly wasn't planned. And yes I know very little
Surely if you bring uneutered male and female in to the same house you effectively plan a pregnancy.
No ideas. I’d be clueless. Rehome your male dog? Especially as it sounds like you’ll have another pregnancy straight away.
daisydotandgertie · 05/03/2020 23:39
Has the behaviourist actually bred a litter? Or the kennel owner?
When is the bitch due?
What research have you done into whelping and bringing up a litter? Are the dam and sire related?
theemmadilemma · 05/03/2020 23:56
I expected the comments, I'd say the same myself. I didn't want this, several cocks up have happened, but I have to deal with it.
@daisydotandgertie I couldn't say 100%. I will confirm re behaviorist but am pretty sure that's no. Will check with Kennels.
Bitch due in approx 2 weeks.
Lots of research, talking with vet re the actual whelping and bringing up the puppies. At no point in talking to our vet (who knows both dogs) or our research did removing the male come up. Since the dogs are usually fine together and we have no experience it didn't occur to us. Hence us now in a panic to ensure we are doing the correct thing, regardless of cost.
Not related at all, I know the linage of both dogs.
theemmadilemma · 06/03/2020 00:00
100% will not be another pregnancy.
tabulahrasa · 06/03/2020 00:03
As far as I know the norm is that other household dogs are kept away for a fairly short amount of time unless the bitch isn’t happy with them being reintroduced and then they’d be separate for longer...
But, um, well, neither of your dogs are coming across from your posts as having particularly sound temperaments tbh... so...
ZeroOneOneTwoThree · 06/03/2020 00:04
What qualifications does your behaviourist have? Sadly, dog behaviourists are (largely) unregulated - although there are a few professional bodies in the UK who expect a certain standard of experience and qualification. Realistically though anyone can call themselves a behaviourist.
daisydotandgertie · 06/03/2020 00:05
I am a breeder and have never removed animals from the house.
The bitch will need a calm, warm whelping box to have her babies. You’ll also need a heat source for the pups. She will likely be very protective of her puppies and dogs usually instinctively respect that.
Buy a copy of The Book of the Bitch if you don’t already have one. It is the most valuable book I have.
What breed do you have? Are they easy whelpers? I understand this wasn’t planned but is the bitch in good health? Have you a breeding mentor? And a cash reserve? Puppies are expensive to rear well. Where is the bitch with worming?
theemmadilemma · 06/03/2020 00:19
Behaviourist has degree in Animal Behaviour from a University and 10 years experience. Great reviews.
We have the welping box set up so she can get used to it. We have a heat source. I have and am consuming the book of bitches.
I don't want to say the breed as it's a little unusual. Happy to PM you @posterdaisydotandgertie. The breed is known for being free whelpers. Bitch is in good health and doing well per check ups. No breeding mentor. Cash reserve yes. Bitch 100% up to date with daily worming.
theemmadilemma · 06/03/2020 00:27
Thank you so much for the help @posterdaisydotandgertie.
It's really appreciated. This was a major fuck up and I want the best outcome for both dogs and the puppies regardless of cost to us.
daisydotandgertie · 06/03/2020 00:30
Excellent. Accidents happen to the very best, most experienced breeders, usually despite every single precaution being taken. You are obviously doing your very best in the circumstances.
I would pay more heed to an experienced breeder than I would a vet or behaviourist who has never actually had a litter.
PM me if you’d like. If I can help, I am happy to.
JKScot4 · 06/03/2020 00:31
I hope the boy has been neutered now.
frostedviolets · 06/03/2020 11:06
I can’t believe you allowed an accidental mating between two ‘very protective breed’ dogs where the male has sufficient stranger aggression to warrant a behaviourist.
The female should have been spayed the second you learnt she was mated.
This could be a disaster for the resultant puppies
CallMeRachel · 06/03/2020 11:19
Our male is newly seeing a behaviorist, mainly for attention barking, but also for lead pulling and some dislike of strangers/strange dogs.
When she introduced herself to our dogs she did so in a way which I understand her reasoning behind (heavy rain/safety) but it meant she entered our home while we were inside with the dogs on leads.
They're of a very protective breed and it set off chaos. In the chaos at one point my female directed slightly against the male dog.
I have to say, I don't like the sound of this behaviourist!!
Entering your home and having your protective dogs on leads to greet her - as a stranger was absolute madness!
She shouldn't treat all dogs the same, this approach pushed your male over threshold so much he redirected onto your bitch.
She should have arranged to meet you somewhere neutral like the park or a field. I've never heard of a dog trainer being afraid to work in the rain before, that's just ridiculous.
If your dogs are bonded and get on well together I wouldn't force the male from the house. Just make sure she has a safe and secure den that he can't access. I bred a litter and the male was no problem at all, bitch warned him away and he respected her space. She had a Whelping pen inside a metal enclosure with gate. Male was close by and got used to the pups but meant all kept safe.
If you have issues with the male temperament though please do your best to make sure the pups are well handles and socialised more than most. Get help from friends and family to do this, after 3-4 weeks.
Big dogs with aggressive tendencies are much more likely to end up being rehomed or end up in rescue.
theemmadilemma · 06/03/2020 12:18
@CallMeRachel We were so confused by the approach. It seemed like the least logical way to approach things. The dogs did exactly what I expected which was react to a stranger entering their home with no welcome from us at the door. I was literally like a scenario you see in working dog security training!!
Absolutely will ensure the pups are well socialised, as you are 100% right about big dogs.
My plan was always a gate/pen for her and pups, but the behaviourist scared us. The dogs are very well bonded.
theemmadilemma · 06/03/2020 12:22
@frostedviolets Behavourist is mainly for barking. We have a couple of areas to work on with strangers where I'd like to see an improvement and wanted some tips. Once he calmed down she was outside and was able to walk with us fine around the block, but it wasn't conducive to continuing because he was finding it difficult to get back to 0 after her initial approach.
SutterCane · 06/03/2020 12:31
Absolutely will ensure the pups are well socialised, as you are 100% right about big dogs.
You might want to consider using something like Puppy Culture. It’s a set of puppy raising protocols designed to give puppies (of any breed) the best possible start in life. There’s an excellent Puppy Culture FB group as well.
The Puppy Plan and Positive Reinforcement Breeder Support are also excellent resources.
adaline · 06/03/2020 13:36
If both your dogs have behavioural issues, why on earth did you not the female spayed as soon as you discovered she was pregnant?
Wolfiefan · 06/03/2020 13:38
@adaline because money was to be made.
beckywiththeshithair39 · 06/03/2020 13:42
Good grief, how many times does the op have to say she realises she has cocked up? She's not excusing the behaviour but what's happened has happened and she's asking for advice on what to do next. If you have just come here to tell her how irresponsible she is for allowing this to happen then maybe just don't post? She's already said it was a mistake that won't happen again. What more can she do?
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