Removing male dog (father) from house when bitch is giving birth and after?

[theemmadilemma]

I'm hoping someone with experience might be able to help, as at this point I'm confused by conflicting advice.

I'll give as much detail as I can that might be relevant.

Our male is newly seeing a behaviorist, mainly for attention barking, but also for lead pulling and some dislike of strangers/strange dogs. When she introduced herself to our dogs she did so in a way which I understand her reasoning behind (heavy rain/safety) but it meant she entered our home while we were inside with the dogs on leads. They're of a very protective breed and it set off chaos. In the chaos at one point my female directed slightly against the male dog.

The dogs are well bonded, often sleep close, rough house but never push too far.

Our house is very small and annoying open plan downstairs. It would be difficult to have the puppies and her upstairs in our spare room due to the noise and thin walls to next door (see attention barking issues). We could put a wide child gate between front room and lounge and remove some furniture for extra space, but no door.

The behaviorist has old us we must remove the male for 4 weeks. That having him there would make her stressed and anxious, they he may aggravate her and we will likely end up with dead puppies by stress or either dog. Obviously we sprang in to action.

So I called the kennels she recommended. After speaking with the Owner at length, the Kennel owner told me the opposite. That taking the male away was likely to cause more issues, as he'd be returning to a house with puppies that he's had no awareness of.

I'm worried he'll just jump the gate, be wanting in there all the time anyway.

We are seeking our vets advice also and am waiting on a call tomorrow, but I would so appreciate any experience from owners or breeders or anyone!

Well she could have predicted that an in season bitch living with an entire male could end up pregnant, or have the bitch spayed, or have the male implanted or neutered or ended the pregnancy ASAP.
But instead she’s choosing to sell puppies.

I hope you will be honest about behavioural issues in parents with any potential buyers. I know you say you 'messed up' but it's honestly inexcusable having un neutered dogs living together.

@Wolfiefan but it's happened. She said she's aware she messed up. What's the point in having a go at her now? Other than making yourself feel superior

Good grief, how many times does the op have to say she realises she has cocked up? She's not excusing the behaviour but what's happened has happened and she's asking for advice on what to do next. If you have just come here to tell her how irresponsible she is for allowing this to happen then maybe just don't post? She's already said it was a mistake that won't happen again. What more can she do?

Because she didn't she didn't have to go through with the pregnancy in the first place. Bitches can be spayed while pregnant. Dogs with behavioural problems should not be bred from. There's no excuse these days, really.

The only option here wasn't "just have the puppies and sell them anyway" and I hope she's honest with any potential buyers about the parents' temperaments and behavioural problems.

So now she’s “messed up”? A little while ago it was an accident!
TBH if these are (sounds like) a giant guarding breed come from parents with dodgy behaviour? I think I would seriously consider putting them to sleep rather than risking the safety of people who take them on.
I’m so fed up of people who claim accident or messed up when they’ve been negligent and CBA to put the welfare of the animal first.
It’s a rare enough breed that the OP doesn’t want to say what it is. But I bet that won’t stop them selling the pups with no warning about what people are taking on.

She said she's aware she messed up. What's the point in having a go at her now? Other than making yourself feel superior

Messing up is letting the bitch become pregnant. I can see how that happens - bitches escape and males can be very persistent when there's a bitch in heat nearby - but that doesn't mean you just let the pregnancy go ahead anyway and sell the pups!

TBH if these are (sounds like) a giant guarding breed come from parents with dodgy behaviour? I think I would seriously consider putting them to sleep rather than risking the safety of people who take them on
I’m so fed up of people who claim accident or messed up when they’ve been negligent and CBA to put the welfare of the animal first
It’s a rare enough breed that the OP doesn’t want to say what it is. But I bet that won’t stop them selling the pups with no warning about what people are taking on

I completely agree with all of this.

I’m not one for spaying accidentally pregnant dogs ordinarily but in the case of a “very protective” breed which I also would assume to mean large guardian breed; Caucasians, Anatolians, Corsos and the like and where at least one of the dogs has behavioural issues yes I 100% would have spayed the bitch, regardless of the stage of pregnancy because the likelihood of behavioural issues in the puppies surfacing at maturity and the new owners being unable to handle the dogs resulting in possible injury, rescue or PTS seems high to me.

I completely agree that is negligent to have two entire dogs of opposing genders in the home together.
Obviously, two entire dogs are going to end up mating sooner or later.

I’ll ask again, is the boy now neutered?
I really hope they’re not Mali’s 😕

I really hope they’re not Mali’s
Quite.
Though the OP said they were unusual and known for being free whelpers.

I’m going to guess some sort of bull/molosser type like a Boerbell or cane corso.

@adaline I said the male had some behavior issues. Female has none. Never had a problem with anyone or dog. She reacted as she did because of the situation she was put in, which others have agreed was not right.

There will not be any further puppies, there were not meant to be any. There are reasons we didn't immediately spay when we realised. I'm not some twat thinking here's a nice little easy earner. Only a dickhead would think that.

@SutterCane That's really helpful, thank you.

And thank you @beckywiththeshithair39.

Any further helpful advice to deal with the current situation as it is would be greatly appreciated.

Only a “dickhead” would sell pups from a parent with dodgy temperament.
There are no excuses OP.

There will not be any further puppies, there were not meant to be any. There are reasons we didn't immediately spay when we realised. I'm not some twat thinking here's a nice little easy earner. Only a dickhead would think that

With respect, you had two entire dogs of opposing genders living together.
How could they possibly not have mated?
You surely must have known a male and female together will breed with each other?

And I’d be really interested to know the reason behind not spaying when you knew she was pregnant?
Because apart from a human ethical moral anti abortion stance I really can’t think of any.

There are reasons we didn't immediately spay when we realised. I'm not some twat thinking here's a nice little easy earner. Only a dickhead would think that.

Maybe it would help if you explained the reasons then, as otherwise it does look like you just thought "fuck it" and went ahead with the pregnancy regardless.

Having two entire dogs (or cats, or whatever) living together is bound to end up in pregnancy sooner or later. I'm confused as to why the situation even occurred in the first place, I guess. Neutering a male dog is only about £100 or so. Much cheaper than pregnancy and raising puppies.

You cant sell them these days though can you?

Please tell me it's not one of the 'livestock guardian dog' breeds we're talking about. Crammed into an obviously small house being allowed to breed....
Far too many of them have already been banned in different countries because of breeders not selecting their breeding stock and customers properly.

“She reacted as she did because of the situation she was put in, which others have agreed was not right.“

See I don’t agree that he reaction was appropriate tbh, which is why I referred to them both having unsound temperaments...

What are you planning to do with the puppies? Is there a breed rescue for that breed?... I ask partly because I’d be really quite worried about where they’d end up if you sell them, given there’s every chance they’ll inherit behavioural issues, but also, if there is and they’d help you rehome the puppies they’d probably be the best place for specific advice.

You cant sell them these days though can you?

Yes, you can.

"The new law requires animals to be born and reared in a safe environment, with their mother, and to be sold from their place of birth."

That's it. It's only in place to stop third-party selling (eg. stopping people from taking puppies from their mothers' and selling them out fake homes.

I’ll assume now I’ve been ignored twice that the boy is still not neutered🙄
The breed won’t be outing, there’s no breed that rare.

To add, if you truly care you should approach the breed rescue and ask them to safely rehome the pups on rescue RBU contracts.

Is the male now neutered?

And this is an entirely avoidable fuck up on a massive scale.

Afterward contact the breed rescue for advice.

Why on earth do you have two large guarding breeds of any gender in a too small house?

Yes you expected to get skated. Because you deserve to be.

I agree not afterward and slated not skated.

.

It would be very unusual to remove the male completely from the house during the whelping and first four weeks after birth.

I think the breed is somewhat relevant though as there are some breeds that are more likely to accept puppies and some that are more likely to have issues.

I think that bringing the male back in when the puppies are 4 weeks old would be madness, bringing him back to a house full of puppies that are active and busy would certainly be a trigger for him if he were to be protective of his home and the bitch would not be very capable of defending the puppies from him as they would be here there and everywhere rather than little blobs in a whelping box.

I would recommend though that you fence off a section of yard so pups and bitch on one side and male on the other side unless under strict supervision and with him showing no signs of aggression. The mum will be a pretty good indicator as to whether she is comfortable and feels safe with him near the pups.

Thank you @StoppinBy

Male is sorted, hence me saying "There will not be any further puppies"