Aibu to get a puppy cavachon?

[Onynx]

A friend of my aunt has a litter of cavachon puppies. She has both of the parent dogs. Our boys have been begging us for a dog for years (12,9&5). I had a King Charles growing up, my mum currently has a bijon frise. Aibu to ask the drawbacks of having a cavachon (and first dog for the boys?) I am a sahm so would be home most days. Also the dog is bright red- is that unusual for a cavachon?

Hi there,
Thanks for reporting this thread, those of you who did. It seems there has been some sock puppeting and, even given the subject matter, some rather extraordinary personal attacks, which we are dealing with now.
We are moving this thread to the doghouse board and hope that it has calmed down sufficient that it can continue.
Thanks, all.

I'm not commenting on crossbreeds but isn't Many Tears quite a controversial rescue centre? I've certainly read loads of comments online (here and on other sites) which hint towards them not being as wonderful as they like to make out to be.

Don't they rescue puppy farm dogs and sell them on?

Genetic problems in breeds have not been caused by byb. They have been caused by these so called "responsible" breeders breeding to KC aesthetic standards. Breeding to a standard that only cares about the look of the dog. Sure,KC have realised their error and breeders are now desperately gene testing to try and eradicate these issues. Puppy farmers are not and so are now worsening the problem of unhealthy dogs but competitive breeders breeding to KC standards really need to get off their high horses as these unhealthy dogs originated with you.

Midnight you seek to be using your dogs wins as a way of somehow demonstrating how superior they and their breeding is. What you fail to appreciate is that show awards mean diddly squat to many of us, especially those that are awarded based on how a dog matches up to a ludicrous breed standard. I would far rather a dog form a healthy happy home than one whose main interest was winning prizes

@User467 Most breeds don't have a 'ludicrous breed standard' though do they. My dog won crufts best of breed when younger and has no health issues. Yes I agree that some dog breeds really aren't healthy but that isn't true for the majority.

I think in this scenario, the same things would worry me about a cross breed as a pedigree dog:

1. The breeder has (presumably) knowingly bred a litter of dogs for which there are no decent homes lined up ready. I would expect breeders, regardless of their reasons for breeding, not to bring dogs into the world unless they know they can provide good homes for them. Most commonly this is a waiting list of vetted owners but could be the breeder has the space, time, resources to keep the dogs (for life) that are not rehomed.

1. It really is rare that you hear of cross breed parents being rigorously health checked before breeding. It's also true that some pedigree owners don't do this either. All should be tested. There are no guarantees in life where the health of dogs is concerned but having parents that have been tested for the most common genetic problems of their breed does help increase the chances of a healthy dog. Crossing breeds does not automatically make all the offspring healthy and to rely on that alone is foolish, imo. I want a dog I can love for life and not one I have to watch suffer. That's why I would expect the parents of my dog to be tested. It's true, a rescue dog does not have that luxury - though as an adult there is an increased chance that health issues will have shown themselves already. Just because they don't have that option is no reason to neglect tests for puppies. I would expect to see health tests for the parents of these dogs.

1. That the temperament of the mum (and, ideally, dad) are excellent. Much of a dog's temperament is genetic and influenced greatly by what they see in adult dogs when they are very young. To take on a puppy from a less-than-perfect mother is to increase the chances of problems. I would expect to be able to meet both parents and expect to see mum interacting with the puppies.

1. That the breeder is giving the puppies the full range of experiences while they are young and understands the importance of them. e.g. puppies raised in stressful environments tend to have greater chances of fearful behaviours when they are older; but this is also true of puppies born into entirely stress-free environments. There needs to be the right level of mild stress for the dog to develop an appropriate adrenal reaction. I would expect any breeder to have spent time becoming knowledgeable about the importance of the first 8 weeks so they can provide the very best experiences for their dogs.

1. That the breeder wants the dog back again if the new owner can no longer keep it - regardless of how old it is. Breeding dogs means you have a lifelong responsibility to those dogs. You take them back, even if you then find another good home for them. You don't let them go into the rescue system. You also provide lifelong support for the owner, giving advice on behavioural or medical issues if you can.

If your aunt's friend has all this covered then perhaps this is ok?

Personally in this situation I wouldn't, why is she giving you a puppy for free? When breeding if it's done properly it can be difficult to make a profit with health testing, stud fees, vet fees, supplies, actual time spent socialising pups etc is very time consuming also.

Has she health tested the parents? Just because the parents are different breeds it doesn't mean the pups will be healthy. I'd hold out for a breeder whose done all of these checks to ensure a healthy pup

Decent breeders will make you sign a contract that states the puppy must be returned to them if they want to rehome. There will also be endorsements that prevent you from breeding.

Breeders of crossbreeds won't do this.

@ProfessorMoody there is no way of legally enforcing that type of contract. I own my dog and so can pass it on to who I want if I want to. Or send it to a rescue, sell it on gum tree no matter what has been signed. It does hopefully encourage people who need to rehome a dog to contact to breeder but it’s not legally enforceable to give your property back to the seller.
Personally I signed and should I need to rehome my dog he would be back with the breeder ASAP. however I would sell my DH first

Unfortunately by rescuing the ex puppy farm bitches, it adds to the problem. The farms know that they can use a bitch and palm it off on a certain place, so it justifies what they're doing

I agree with the 1st sentence, @ProfessorMoody, not so much the 2nd. There’s no justification for puppy farming and the shocking way they treat the dogs. Quite honestly, dairy farmers treat their stock far better in this country.

I'm not commenting on crossbreeds but isn't Many Tears quite a controversial rescue centre? I've certainly read loads of comments online (here and on other sites) which hint towards them not being as wonderful as they like to make out to be. Don't they rescue puppy farm dogs and sell them on?

Well, they ask for quite huge ‘adoption fees’ as opposed to selling them on. And yes, they take ex-puppy farm breeding stock, makes it nice and tidy for the bloody puppy farmers, doesn’t it? I understand that they also import from Ireland, which, IMO, just adds to the U.K. rescue crisis. (I know, whole other thread!)

As for the pp who said you ought to have homes lined up before breeding, yes, definitely. I’ve seen pups before, little bit older than the usual 8 weeks, because the breeder didn’t have homes lined up, nor did they want to interview prospective buyers.

Geekone - I'm sure there was a case where the breeder won but it went to court. I'll have to try and find it. I know friends have said that it can stand in court if there's proof of resale. I think it would discourage a lot of people though - I know I wouldn't consider buying a puppy unless I'm sure the breeder would take it back in certain circumstances. In my breed in particular, potential puppy owners are vetted carefully so you more often than not end up being quite close to the breeder anyway.

Maelstrop - I meant justifies it to them, although that type of person has no conscience anyway so perhaps not!

They are a controversial "rescue", yes. In rescue circles local to them because they only take certain dogs. Have a look at their website, you won't see bull breeds or dogs like lurchers.

*Decent breeders will make you sign a contract that states the puppy must be returned to them if they want to rehome. There will also be endorsements that prevent you from breeding.

Breeders of crossbreeds won't do this.* - not true.

Also, please do not spout rubbish about a dog rescue on here, it is very damaging to them and the dogs they help.
Yes they take ex puppy farm breeders - the alternative are the dogs are drowned or beaten to death.
The bitches are abused and terrified, never known a kind touch or comfy bed. This amazing charity ensures that the rest of their lives are a world away from what they have had previously.
They do not 'sell' the puppies, they ask for an adoption fee, as is standard for all rescue centres.
They mainly take the same small breeds, as they have the contacts to rehome them, and they are the popular puppy farm breeds. There are plenty of breed specific rescues around. There really are not many lurchers or bull breeds in puppy farms!

ProMoody just to add some additional detail to the point re rescues and lurchers. I know, here in Lincolnshire, some rescues don't like to put lurchers on their websites because it attracts thieves. I did some volunteering with one that had been broken into 3 times in recent months, once by a SUV being literally driven through their fencing. All to get at the lurchers inside (presumably for hare coursing). As a result it was a constant priority to get any lurchers offsite and into foster homes to increase the safety for all.

That's not to take away from you point about rescues being selective. Just wanted to add this in case anyone is put off by rescues not having lurchers on their website - they may well have some available but not want to advertise that fact.

@ProfessorMoody I wouldn’t buy a dog from a breeder who didn’t put this in a contract so I agree there.
Interesting if there is a breeder who won, and so they should.

Professor Moody I have a crossbreed that has completely health tested Parents and a contract that says the dog must go back to the breeder if I can’t look after her and that I am not allowed to breed from her (with a fairly eye watering penalty clause).

She also goes back when we are on holiday and the breeder is always happy to answer any questions I have.

I didn’t particularly want a cross breed I wanted a dog I felt had been ethically bred and ended up with a crossbreed.

ThisMorningWentBadly - nah according to MN you can't have an ethically bred crossbreed as breeding should only be to 'further the lines'. Therefore everyone must have a highly strung pedigree whether you like it or not.

nah according to MN

I see this kind of statement here all the time and it always confuses me because it always seems to me to be a real mix of opinions on cross breeds, rather than a single, hive mind of everyone saying "no".

I did a VERY unscientific count up of the first 4 pages of messages on this thread (then got bored ). My results were... drum roll please...

In 3rd place, with the least number of messages: messages where people were actively discouraging cross breeds, because they are cross breeds and so they are worried about breeding practises

In 2nd place, with almost twice as many messages as the above, were people actively recommending cross breeds as a healthy alternative to pure breeds or giving positive stoies of thier own cross breeds.

In 1st place, just sneaking ahead of 2nd place, are messages commentating on this specific circumstance and giving no opinion either way on cross breeds in general.

Thought you might all be as easily distracted from work interested as me!

Thinking about it, I'd rather buy a crossbreed with fully health-tested parents, endorsements and a contract that specifies the dog must be returned to the breeder, than a pedigree dog with none of those.

I bet they're very few and far between though.

Out of interest, is it a Labradoodle? I'm assuming that since they've started using them as assistance dogs, more care is being taken with the ones that are bred for that reason.

Yes she is, though purely bred for a pet.

When I picked her up I came away with two ring binders , one full of advice and one with a copy of absolutely everything.

I also came away with every grooming utensil known to man and had received a demonstration in how to use them.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if a Labradoodle becomes a recognised breed in time. There has been talk of it. It's a shame everyone who feels the need to churn out litters of puppies isn't the same as that.

“Therefore everyone must have a highly strung pedigree whether you like it or not.”

Well bred pedigree shouldn’t be highly strung... besides, if pedigrees are all highly strung, how would breeding two different highly strung pedigrees be an improvement?

Therefore everyone must have a highly strung pedigree whether you like it or not.

Surely well-bred pedigrees should have calm temperaments and not be highly strung?

But what would I know, I've got a [gasp] pedigree beagle, which according to some threads, is the ultimate sin as apparently (according to some) beagles shouldn't even be bred as pets. Completely ignoring the fact that he's stupidly healthy and happy, has a fab temperament, is amazing with children and has slotted perfectly into our life. I have the health test results for three generations on both sides and I'm still in touch with my breeder and all the other people who got pups from the same litter. Everyone says their pups are healthy and have never needed the vet other than for boosters or injuries (in other words, nothing that's anything to do with their lineage or parents).

Surely pedigree breed temperaments vary from breed to breed.

I owned a pedigree min.dachshund for years and she had the constitution of a concrete elephant. Healthy as ... a really healthy thing for 17 years!

But bugger me - they weren't joking in the small print when they said ''min.d's are a wonderful companion but are known for being 'vigorously alert' ...''

She was great, but i'd never chose a 'vigorously alert' dog again

Compare to that my pedigree Great Dane. Vigorously couldn't be arsed with anything much apart from food and trying to get on my lap

It’s time people stopped criticising cross bred dogs. They are more popular than pedigrees and often avoid pedigree dogs’ health problems. Their owners love them. Why do others care what kind of puppy someone chooses to buy?
If I want to spend £2000 on a Poopomjackstaffcockdax that’s none of your business.