Crufts

[Arkkorox]

Anyone watching?

I've tried to avoid commenting but no dog was designed to be pulled out of holes or be lifted by its tail. KC has just got to man up to old fashion and out of date handling methods and make a stand that is is not to be used at their shows (and a lot of other things as well).

I was at Crufts for the full four days there are so many positives and excellent opportunities to educate people at Crufts. I was giving displays and talks and loads of positive trainers were giving excellent advice. But there was still a stall with prong collars on the Thursday.

Breed showing is a joke and until they add a physical fit for purpose test it will continue to be so.

mutty, dogster is one of many sites that disagree:

www.dogster.com/small-dog-breeds/the-original-jobs-of-small-dogs

The terrier's thick tail was bred so that the owner could pull it out of a hole when it refused to give up on its quarry

Breed showing isn't a joke. Tens of thousands of us do it week in week out. Dogs are our lives. Our dogs have wonderful lives. They wouldn't show if they didn't want to. 2/3 incidents don't mean the remaining 22,000 dogs and exhibitors over the last 4 days are the same.

Interestingly, this is the Scottish Terrier Club of America breed standard:

The Scottish Terrier standard is the written description of what makes a Scottie a Scottie. In the late 1800s, breeders in the Scottish Highlands needed an intelligent dog that could go to ground and fearlessly hunt vermin. They needed a dog with a deep chest, short legs, and a sturdy tail: The deep chest gives the dog a place to rest his body while his legs are throwing dirt out of the hole; the short legs allows the Scottie to throw dirt to the sides, not back between his legs; and, the firmly rooted, sturdy and thick tail allowed the Highlander to pull to the dog back out of the hole by the tail with the critter firmly locked in the Scottie’s huge teeth and powerful jaws

As I said, I don't agree with it, and I'd never pull my Scott around by his tail, but that is what he was bred for, as a working dog.

I agree with Mutty and also think showing is a joke.

The overwhelming majority of dogs at crufts this year were overweight! Some majorly so.

I saw yellow teeth also and much as the kennel club likes to bang on about health and fit for function etc the overwhelming majority of dogs would not be able to do the job they were bred for.
That gsd
Working gsds are straight backed for a reason...

Dachshunds with bellies practically touching the floor, the bulldog. Poor, poor bulldog.

Showing imo seems to be all about vanity and unhealthy exaggeration, usually at the detriment of the dog.
When you compare the original working retrievers, Bulldogs, spaniels etc to the show type they might as well be different breeds.

Some of the breeds, like the Pekingese and bulldog are nothing short of abuse and should be allowed to die out.
We meet a bulldog on our walks sometimes who wants so badly to run and play with my dog, but can't. It's sick.

Agree about bulldogs and pugs, they can barely breathe. It is hideous. Those dogs are suffering.

Ooh if dogster say so......

I will slightly rephrase. Showing is a joke at the moment. The breed standards of many most breeds are encouraging ill deformed dogs of dodgy temperament that have a poor quality of life.

Who in gods name think that a dog should have a tail strong enough to be able to pull - I rest my case. Although the breed standard does not say that at all.

Just an example (do not get me started on other breeds.......)

Look at the show labradors there is no way on earth they could go and do what labs do and work on a shoot - they are breed too chunky with bones issues and short deep chests - look at the working labs, fab fit healthy dogs breed for purpose yet they would be laughed out of a show.

Breeding purely for appearance is not the way to go - do carry on showing but make sure the test includes some evidence of fit for purpose - can the lab jump over a fence and recall a dummy (dogs in the show ring this year couldn't)

No need to be arsey mutty . Just pointing out that many terriers were originally bred for this reason. Your comment: no dog was designed to be pulled out of holes was wrong. Thats exactly what Scotties, Westies, Norfolks and Sealyhams to name but a few were designed to do back in the 1800's. They were bred to create a dog that served a purpose.

I completely agree that pulling dogs by their tails is wrong, but it doesn't change what they were designed for originally.

The overwhelming majority of dogs at crufts this year were overweight! Some majorly so.

goodness me buttholelane, you must have had a very busy 4 days at Crufts to be able to see every one of the 21,479 (or thereabouts!) dogs entered to make such a statement.

I can only judge based on what I saw televised, of those dogs, allegedly excellent examples of their breed, the overwhelming majority were overweight!

That's the great thing about flatcoats - there has not been a show/working divide, Dublin is 'fit for purpose' and clearly looks like he could clear a fence - he certainly has the instinct for carrying anything that will fit in his mouth. One of mine came up the garden, as a puppy, with one of our Indian Runner ducks in her mouth . The duck looked a bit stunned at the unexpected ride but was none the worse for it he's now living out his old age in a secure run

Then please keep your comments to yourself.

I agree re the Labradors. There should be no difference in Show and Working if fitness for purpose is an issue, as the former are not how Labs were designed to be to do the jobs they do.

The Malamute in BIS was overweight. Not muscly, not stocky. Overweight. Some breeds have become cartoons of themselves and Crufts needs to address that.

Why should I keep my comments to myself?

Who am I offending?

Healthy weight for a dog - clear nipped in waist, ribs easily felt, hip bones visible on certain breeds, on a short coated breed the outline of the ribcage at least should be visible if not stationary then certainly when moving.

Does this accurately describe most of the dogs televised?
No.

Are there numerous health problems associated with excess weight?
Yes.

Just stating a fact.
That most of the show dogs I saw were overweight.

MuttyNutty, are you involved in labs at all?? Did you personally ask all the labs showing at crufts this year to reform a retrieve for you??
Many of the well competed labradors also hold their Show Gundog Working Certificate, making them a full champion, rather than just a show champion. Many more will also do a little sundog training for fun, to work their dogs brains. You can only take the WGSC if your dog has done well enough in the ring, so many more people are also dabbling in sundog training than would first appear.

"The aim of the Show Gundog Working Certificate (SGWC) is to provide credible proof of the natural working ability of a KC registered Gundog that has already proved it meets the KC Breed Standard by a qualification in the show ring. More details about what is required for the Show Gundog Working Certificate can be found in the SGWC handbook. - See more at: www.thekennelclub.org.uk/activities/field-trials-working-gundogs/new-to-field-trials-gundog-working-tests/working-gundog-certificate/show-gundog-working-certificate-days/#sthash.TTeSQSHP.dpuf"

Actually, working type labs have also moved a very long way from their traditional use and one could argue that they are equally unsuited to working all day on a shoot. Many working type labs are bred with field trials etc in mind. For these the dogs need to be super quick and very sharp. They do not need the stamina and steadiness required to work all day with the distractions of a shoot, plus they may not have the substance required to actually be strong enough to spend a whole day retrieving heavy game. So both factions of labs, working and show, have moved away from the original type of dog.

Because you are talking bollocks to be frank. Unless you are there and can see each of the dogs there is no way you can state what you have. Another armchair judge with absolutely no intention of educating themselves.

You are not stating fact. There were over 21,000 dogs entered at Crufts for which you would have seen (on TV) less than 100 and you state the majority of dogs were overweight.

As I say bollocks. Birmingham champ show show is coming up.....how about educating yourself there by coming along and speaking to exhibitors and actually seeing some of the dogs?

In your posts you seem to be such an expert on many breeds over many groups. What is your actual experience?

Sorry for all my typos and autocorrect btw..

I will try and state this as clearly as possible so there is little confusion.

I was not at crufts, therefore, I cannot comment of the 2,000 plus dogs.

However, I did see the televised portion of crufts which showed less 100 or less dogs.
The majority of the 100 dogs shown on television were overweight, this was clearly obvious unless you happen to be blind.

By all means, Google healthy weight dogs or take a look at the posters in your vets.
Then take a second look at the dogs...

I have never professed to be in any way an expert, that is your personal opinion.
I like dogs, I spend a lot of time with dogs, reading about dogs, watching programmes about dogs, talking to dog owners and dog professionals.
However, I have never claimed that any of my comments on here are in any way professional, they have always been my own views.

I was at Crufts for 4 days - lecturing and giving presentations on dog welfare and behaviour.

I have an BSc in Animal Behaviour and Welfare including modules and dissertation of breeding and impact of breeding on behaviour and health

I have an MA in Canine Behaviour

I have a Phd in Companion Animals Behaviour, training and welfare

No specific experience in labs but general dog experience. I am a working behaviourist working for many organisations and picking up the pieces of poor breeding in the average pet home.

I'll sink back into my armchair now I know fuck all about lots of things but I do know a bit about dogs

you state ribs easily felt - would you care to share how you do this from your arm chair or how they would even be seen on say something like a maltease or yorkie. how would the ribs be easily felt from home on the afghan or under the coat of a newfoundland or a st bernard.

All very impressive, but as you say you don't have experience of labs and therefore you have made a huge sweeping statement, "carry on showing but make sure the test includes some evidence of fit for purpose - can the lab jump over a fence and recall a dummy (dogs in the show ring this year couldn't)" Making presumptions about all of the dogs in the ring, which is nonsense...

"picking up the pieces of poor breeding in your average pet home" not really sure where that comes into anything we are discussing nor what you mean by that in relation to show labradors?

If you read my post you will see I was using the labs as one example - I can go on about many breeds. The point I was making is that the breed standards are being abused to create dogs with extreme examples of the standard at the detriment of the dogs welfare - You do not need to see everydog at the show to recognise that.

Were you at crufts? Are you a breeder of labs?

"picking up the pieces of poor breeding in your average pet home" as a behaviourist I am seeing more and more poor temperaments which are causing heartbreak for owners and dogs that are not fit for purpose on a daily basis due to atrocious breeding.

I know many breeders will not agree - that is why dog breeding is in the state that it is today and that is why the KC will not man up to the task of ruling out horrific handling of the show dogs, and improve dog welfare but bringing in a physical fit for purpose section of the award, however that does not make it right.

You might have lots of lovely qualifications but you seem to have forgotten all the nice manners your mummy and daddy taught you. It's rude to be smug. We're all on the same side here. None of us condone the state some of those dogs were in and we all care enough to have an opinion so for gods sake calm the fuck down.

I'm not at all smug or uptight. I don't even think I am being rude ,although I am better with dogs than people so I apologise if that is how it is coming across.

I though I was just giving an opinion and answering the questions I had been asked - sorry (I'll trot off now then if I am annoying you)

Well you were a bit full on, yes. I've spoken to several of the posters here in the past and they're all dog lovers, some - like me - recently bereaved dog owners, and we don't need a lecture, thank you. We all do our best.