Dog bit dd last night ...

[butterfliesinmytummy]

I have posted before about our 18 month old rescue dog. She is ridgeback x staffie and we've had her since she was 8 weeks old - she was a stray in a shelter. She has a very high play drive and loads of energy - I'm a sahm who likes walking a lot! We think we have done everything right - we crate trained, we use positive reinforcement, we did puppy training, we exercise her a lot, we train on a regular basis (her basic commands are super sharp) and she's a smart dog.

She has snapped at and bitten (without breaking skin) people she doesn't know in daycare before (she goes one half day a week) and we recently worked with a behaviourist for several weeks. He did several sessions with us, working on training, giving her more confidence and advised the daycare people on how to handle her, to give her a wide berth (avoiding triggers). We don't walk off the lead as it's not allowed where we live (USA) but we give people a wide berth when we are walking too (mainly because she tends to jump up).

Dd2 is 6 and adores the dog. She has been taught not to look into the dog's eyes, not to cuddle her, not to disturb her when she's sleeping, eating etc but she "forgets" and cuddles the dog, which I can tell the dog is uncomfortable with. Last night my back was turned and all of a sudden the dog growled and dd screamed. The dog didn't break her skin but it left a red mark on her cheek that I could see hours later. I am 99% sure that dd2 was hugging the dog or staring at her etc because the mantra in our house is "leave the dog alone". She is constantly "on" the dog, hugging her, chatting to her, playing with her feet, kissing her.....

I am worried that this is a warning, the dog has form for this and I have no idea what to do next, or what will happen next. Dd2 was wrong in the way she was hugging the dog and we have had discussions time and time again about being respectful and only petting the dog under certain circumstances etc. This has really shaken dd2 and I'm hoping that she has learned a lesson but I am really upset and unsure where to go from here.... I don't think I can rehome a mixed breed that bites and nearly all shelters here are kill shelters, there is a real problem with overpopulation of dogs. Help!

I see that you are in Texas, but really, it's still a place full of people...people who love animals.

Your dog needs re homing to a house with no children or much older children.

I would get another dog, but one that can be the pet your DD would obviously adore. There's no shortage of dogs who like constant fussing and get a big enough crate for the dog to go in when it wants to be left alone.

Getting one from a rescue is admirable, but not something you should do until DD is grown. Until then get one from a reputable breeder. People on here will help you find one, even in Texas.

Your dog does not need to be pts.

Dear god. Your daughter's safety comes first. It's only a dog!

Please. Get rid of the dog. Dogs are not toys (agree with people who said that) but I'm sorry. You just cannot expect a 6 yr old to behave immaculately all the time. You just can't.

No big deal if a dog nips???! no! Not if there is only you in the house and you don't mind! But there is a child here, who I'm sorry, is more important than any dog. My goodness...some bizarre opinions on this!

The dog goes. Simple.

Pengyquin - I disagree, a six year old ignoring the rules time and time again - that is what that needs addressing.

What has gone wrong here IMHO is that the OP brought a dog without thinking of the size of the dog and also her inability to get her DD to follow basic rules. The dog was also a rescue which I really didnt think helped.

To the person that said no big deal if the dog nips????? Seriously?? My dog would be out on her arse if she ever even growled near anyone!

I thank dogs which growl. How else can they convey the message that they're uncomfortable? They can't exactly say "excuse me, do you mind giving me a bit more space please?". Growling is giving a warning. Much better than biting.

Same as if you're in a queue in the supermarket and someone is standing too close to you. You're going to ask them to give you space before you resort to punching them, yes?

Get rid of the dog. Rehome if possible, but pts if not. You cannot put your daughter at risk like this. That dog will never be safe.

I honestly fear we'll never ever reach a stage where people are safe around dogs when there's such an inherent inability to realise that dogs try really hard to communicate with us, of only we'll listen :(

IMO any dog can snap if provoked, and one snap generally would not mean the end of the dog in my personal view.

However, this is a dog who has a history of biting, people at the daycare you take him to so presumably experienced dog people, and now your dd. And you have this long list of rules as to how your dd needs to tip-toe around the dog to ensure she doesn't get bitten.

Now, I am always a bit when people say things like "oh my dog is so fab, the kids pull his ears/tail/fur/jump all over him and he doesn't bat an eyelid," because clearly they have no respect for the dog and presumably if the dog did bite it would be the dog who got the blame. But in this case not only are you taking precautions with your dd around the dog but you are all walking on eggshells because frankly, the dog is aggressive and unpredictable and can't be trusted.

It would be irresponsible to pass this dog to anyone. It will never be a dog that can be trusted - even in part - and you just don't know when it is going to inflict a more serious injury than it already has. And with a dog like this it is a matter of when not if.

I would pts without hesitation.

And yes, a six year old can follow simple instructions, and on some level perhaps being bitten the other night did teach her something. However a six year old should be able to stroke a dog/play/interact with it without the fear of being bitten...

I am pleased to see other posters also commenting about nipping.

Maybe the child is a bit intense, but when the dog has bitten other people aswell, presumably unprovoked if they were workers at doggy daycare, you have to wonder how guilty the child really is.

Also, how else could they tell you they were uncomfortable?
Well they have lots of ways that don't involve potential injury.
I guess really owners should read up on body language more to recognise the more subtle signs.
But I think most family dogs would prefer to simply move away rather than go growling at people?
I have never heard my dog growl at any of us outside play.

missy You dog would be out on her arse if she growled at someone? Really? Jesus!!! What if she were ill or in pain and you hadn't yet realised? What if said person had made her feel extremely uncomfortable and she had tried, through body language to communicate her discomfort? Then, the next stage is a growl. It's not even a baring of teeth, let alone a snap.

I'm glad you don't own my dogs!!!!!

Which, again, is not to say I don't agree this particular dog shouldn't be rehomed.

butt ddog2 has growled, a couple of times, but we have absolutely and completely dis-respected his space without thinking. Entirely our fault. Ddog1 is the type that would be happy to endure all sorts, but we don't, naturally.

I agree that getting rid of a dog for growling would be an ott reaction.

I also think that it is very rare for dogs to suddenly turn without warning and attack, and that in most instances where a dog has done so there has either been provocation or the dog was known to be aggressive but this was ignored.

In this case this dog is known to be aggressive. It has bitten several times before, so much so that this whole family walks on eggshells around the dog and still the daughter has been bitten.

There have already been professionals involved and the dog is still aggressive. This isn't a dog who is trying to say something - it is an aggressive dog.

I was attacked by a mastiff when I was three - we were at the garage picking up our car and the owner took us to show us the dog. He took one look at me and flew at me. Fortunately for me he was on a chain attached to a running wire and knocked me out of the way or I would probably be permanently disfigured now or perhaps even dead. And the owner told my mum afterwards that the dog had been passed to him because it had bitten a child. so, dog with known aggression.

It is irresponsible to knowingly pass on an aggressive dog, not knowing where that dog will end up. When it bites again, and it will, the person who passed it on will be partly responsible.

crapcrapcrapcrap...growling is the equivalent of telling someone to fuck right off, now! dogs give loads of warnings that they are uncomfortable before that point which are the equivalent of saying, can you not do that actually, I don't like it.

Some dogs just skip from what they think has been a pretty clear statement to a snap, much as some people would not have an in-between stage between I really don't like what you are doing to me stop it and physically making somebody stop it.

My dog has some pretty big issues (he's carefully managed, has a behavioural specialist and I don't have young DC, also he's perfectly fine with us, just everyone else) He doesn't growl, he does plenty of appeasement behaviours, lip licking, rolling on to his back - which people misread all the time as him being friendly...luckily I can tell people that in fact he's uncomfortable, but it's amazing how many people misread him, his next step is to go tense and do a fixed stare, just before he launches himself at someone.

This usually happens with health professionals btw, in case you think he's just randomly doing this to strangers, lol.

As far as he's concerned he's given them plenty of notice that he is not happy about what they are doing, but because he doesn't growl, usually they don't see it coming.

To use your analogy,if he's a person in the supermarket, he doesn't speak English, he has someone behaving inappropriately to him, he's said quite clearly that they need to stop touching him, but because he doesn't say the words in his language that they recognize, they've ignored him...

Dogs haven't read the dog to English phrasebook, they don't all know that growling is the next one they should use. The OP knew the dog was uncomfortable, so she's clearly been communicating that she doesn't like what's been done to her.

agree wannabe

people are desperate to play the hero here and finding alternative solutions and are slamming people suggesting PTS.

but this dog has issues it's nit just about the child.

professional help has already been sought (at great cost no doubt so why people assume shed do this over teaching her dd I don't know ) and the dog still bit and snapped. not only the dd but the people at day care.

This is a responsible owner who has tried everything. what makes you all so sure it's so simple.

someone Find me a list of people who : *have expertise

*time and money

*a garuntee there will be no nieces nephews, kids,grand kids, great grand kids or kids in the neighbourhood kicking balls over the Fence.

*high fences front back and all around.

• enough land for the dog

*people who want a dog who can't be around other people and dogs ever.

*people who won't want a holiday for the next 10+years

• perfect health. can't have them. getting sick now and needing a dog walker.

Come on bring me a list of these rich family less hermits who can take on this dog.

and can take it today.

come on.....

Even finding a home, it isn't all just "a job well done"

what happens after. It's important to care what happens after and if this dog will be happy. If this dog doesn't get passed on again if its too much for those who take it originally.

Define 'absolutely and completely disrespected his space'?

If one of my children did something mean like pinched her or something when I was busy and had my back turned (which is virtually never going to happen really but assuming it did) and my dog growled, would I feel a bit uncomfortable? Yes. But I wouldn't get rid of the dog because she is warning a child who has hurt her.
But I would feel uncomfortable, I would expect a 'family dog' to remove herself from the situation really which is what I think my, and the other dogs I know, would do based on what I have seen of their temperament.

It makes me feel very uncomfortable indeed when I hear about families with children whose dogs repeatedly growl at their children and the owners act like its normal.
For one, if the dog feels the need to persistently growl I don't think it's fair to stress them keeping them in that environment. But I also worry that it's a matter of time before the child is injured.

I would only expect a growl really if something extraordinarily painful or shocking happened, I see it as quite a strong, extreme warning, rather like someone suddenly coming nose to nose and screaming at you instead of calmly telling you their problem.

You say he growled because you disrespected his space.
Seems like a very ott reaction, I often push the dog aside a bit if she is sat where I want to sit, or take a cuddly toy straight off her if she decides to pinch one of the baby's (she loves plush toys). My son has been known to kiss her head while she is asleep, she will either push her head towards his face to be kissed again or sigh and walk off and sleep somewhere else.
I would never expect her to growl at any of those things?

No, and neither would mine. This is being hugged, closely, and hard and then not being let go, by someone who should know better.

tabulah I completely agree with your post, but was making my point in response to someone saying they'd get rid of a dog for growling. As a vet I have to examine unwell, frightened and painful dogs all day so I get growled at a lot, and owners often immediately reprimand their dog. But the dog has done exactly the right thing - given me a clear unequivocal warning, rather than hurting me. It isn't something to punish, or justification for rehoming, as you know.

I was just trying to point out that a growl isn't a reason to get rid of the dog but a reason to examine the situation that caused it to happen.

butt and you don't know my dogs or the circumstances, so you can't judge whether that was an 'very OTT' reaction or not. You can do all of the things you describe to both of mine and more, but being hugged closely and hard and not being let go was enough for ddog2 to omit a very small warning growl. I told DD (13!!!!) off, not the dog and would do so again.

"but was making my point in response to someone saying they'd get rid of a dog for growling"

Sorry, yes, I can see that reading back over the thread, I read it as dogs should growl before snapping.

I'd welcome a growling dog, it'd make my life so much easier, lol.

This is an excellent source of info for anyone reading that may be interested in teaching children about dog body language and how to respect dogs in general.
www.liamjperkfoundation.org/talk.html

On phone so hope the link works.

Good call Aked

So many messages. A couple of points to add:
Dh and I have grown up with dogs, we wanted one of our own but then lived in Asia with no garden, now in Texas, dd2 was 5 when we got our current dog. I'm not working outside of the house, we had money for training etc, big garden, great neighbourhood for lots of walks, found a great vet etc. We didn't go into this blind. Choice of dog, I have already explained, she was the tiny shy one with sticking out ribs in a room of 40 crates with barking dogs. Supposedly a lab x dalmatian. We specifically looked for a non alpha puppy that we could train. Looking at the conditions in shelters here, how we didn't come home with a bus full of dogs is beyond me.

We have put everything into this dog. I'm not saying she owes us anything but we literally haven't put a foot wrong. She has a great life, open back door to a garden, isn't left for more than 4 hours ever, I am at home all the time, has had great training, is walked well and regularly, goes to daycare (which she loves unless unfamiliar people are in the kennel section), has had expert advice from a behaviourist, gets great food, spends time playing and training every day.....

Dd2 has been told all the right things about the dog as someone mentioned upthread. We have explained over and over that dogs have different language, hugging a dog round the neck isn't friendly, they love having their chests rubbed (ours in particular) and being stroked from neck to tail. We have explained the consequences of not treating a dog how they want to be treated ie dogs can bite, this means pain, hospital trips etc. Dd1 split her chin on a tiled floor years ago and has chatted to her about stitches. We have been over this so many times and from so many angles with every single permutation. She is a very stubborn child though and the dog has never growled at her, doesn't move away etc. She takes this as acceptance ("see Mummy, she likes it"). Since the bite, dd2 is very respectful of the dog and is doing everything right. She is tightly supervised. This isn't a solution but a sticking plaster until we come up with one. The dog is at a dogsitter for 4 days next week as we have visitors and want to have some days out (nothing to do with behaviour, just gives us more freedom) and then my behaviourist is coming to work with us next week and advise. He knows us and our dog well. He has given me some youtube links to watch with the kids (how to kiss a dog etc) and we've sat down and dd2 is learning.

Dh is in a different time zone at the moment (+14 hours) and chatting isn't easy but we have and we know where we are heading. I doubt that this is the type of behaviour that goes away and I can imagine that it's something that is likely to escalate as she gets older.... I can't imagine a family with a sahm, large outdoor space and no kids or grandkids prepared to spend as much time, money and energy on a dog with this history. Shelters are busting at the seams, euthanising every day. There's no chance that someone would take ours. And if she ever bit anyone else, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself.

I don't think anyone is implying that you are responsible for your child getting bitten.

Reading your post you still seem undecided. I am sure you will make the righrt decision, its so so difficult.

Maybe your DD will learn that actually, doggie doesn't like cuddles etc. Eye contact is really intimidating and aggressive to dogs. With my old rottie i used to have to tell people not to look at him as he found it really challenging and would react. Its difficult not to stare at a dog once its makes eye contact though but maybe this is something you can talk to your DD about because whilst she will hopefully now not get in the dogs face, not looking at the dog is counter-intuitive.

You know your dog and you know your DD. Does he absolutley have to go to daycare?

You have rules in place that weren't adhered to.
It is your responsibility for your child and dogs sake to watch them at all times but I understand this isn't always possible.
Either you separate dog and child if you can't supervise every single second of the time they are together or you rehome.
Most dogs will give you plenty of signals that they are not happy with what is going on and maybe that is something you can look into on the internet - there's plenty on there. When it reaches a warning snap it is very serious and it means the dog has CHOSEN not to bite but tried to express its feelings. Once the teeth ever touch the skin you have a problem. You need to encourage a relationship with dog and child , treats for dog while in contact with child, lots of fun play. If you are uncomfortable about dog and child together your dog knows this. If the dog links being around the child with being told of and you being stressed a bad link is established in your dogs eyes.
Without being there I can imagine the dog gave warnings and your child overstepped the boundaries which should not of been allowed to happen.
There are of course some dogs which will skip the warning signs and will just bite and this is of course a dog which should unfortunately put down as it is a risk to others, this type of dog isn't that common but is definitely one that should never be kept in contact with children.
It is down to you to trust your instincts about this dog, if you do believe it will bite at some stage with no warning , It needs to be rehomed/put down. A dog like this is likely to be living with a huge amount of stress and anxiety on its shoulders and it may not be fair for it to live this way.
If you are 100% sure this only happened because your daughter overstepped the boundaries i would put in place rules for child and dog to be allowed together only in your constant supervision, positive reinforcement with them together and a chat with your daughter reiterating the boundaries and as she now knows why they are in place . I can't tell what you have written what I would do but I know that if I a dog is in an anxious state and a danger it should be rehomed and possibly put down if it's mental health is not healthy. All dogs deserve to live a life in a happy way and your child deserves to live a life where she is not in fear of the family dog and possibly at risk. If you know you can stop this from ever happening again keep the dog but you need to be very vigilant all the time, no leaving them together even for 1 minute. It's possible that the dog may be a little over dependant and need you to be there for her to deal with your daughter, her trust in you may enable her to deal with these situations but the trust is broken if you do not listen to the warning signs she makes. Dogs are very good at telling us things but we must always listen to them because accidents do happen and you really don't want that

I hope it goes ok for you, sorry for the essay , maybe speak to the behaviourist again about this and ask their opinion