Dog bit dd last night ...

[butterfliesinmytummy]

I have posted before about our 18 month old rescue dog. She is ridgeback x staffie and we've had her since she was 8 weeks old - she was a stray in a shelter. She has a very high play drive and loads of energy - I'm a sahm who likes walking a lot! We think we have done everything right - we crate trained, we use positive reinforcement, we did puppy training, we exercise her a lot, we train on a regular basis (her basic commands are super sharp) and she's a smart dog.

She has snapped at and bitten (without breaking skin) people she doesn't know in daycare before (she goes one half day a week) and we recently worked with a behaviourist for several weeks. He did several sessions with us, working on training, giving her more confidence and advised the daycare people on how to handle her, to give her a wide berth (avoiding triggers). We don't walk off the lead as it's not allowed where we live (USA) but we give people a wide berth when we are walking too (mainly because she tends to jump up).

Dd2 is 6 and adores the dog. She has been taught not to look into the dog's eyes, not to cuddle her, not to disturb her when she's sleeping, eating etc but she "forgets" and cuddles the dog, which I can tell the dog is uncomfortable with. Last night my back was turned and all of a sudden the dog growled and dd screamed. The dog didn't break her skin but it left a red mark on her cheek that I could see hours later. I am 99% sure that dd2 was hugging the dog or staring at her etc because the mantra in our house is "leave the dog alone". She is constantly "on" the dog, hugging her, chatting to her, playing with her feet, kissing her.....

I am worried that this is a warning, the dog has form for this and I have no idea what to do next, or what will happen next. Dd2 was wrong in the way she was hugging the dog and we have had discussions time and time again about being respectful and only petting the dog under certain circumstances etc. This has really shaken dd2 and I'm hoping that she has learned a lesson but I am really upset and unsure where to go from here.... I don't think I can rehome a mixed breed that bites and nearly all shelters here are kill shelters, there is a real problem with overpopulation of dogs. Help!

Please don't get the dog PTS.

Just keep child separate from dog until she knows not to cuddle and get in its face and stare at it. She's six, not a toddler, so it shouldn't be long before she can understand how to behave around a dog. Loads of info online.
There's a site with pics of dogs being cuddled by kids, supposed to be happy photos but it explains the dog's body language is showing how much they all hate it. Will try to find link.
I wouldn't dream of letting a child do this to either of my dogs, even if they didn't react it would be cruel.

Get your child a large soft toy to cuddle and keep her away from the dog until she's safe to go near it.

As a last resort.
I have never seen a balanced adult dog nip a puppy unless they were persistently ignoring all polite requests to stop.
Perhaps some dogs are different, but the above is true for all dogs I have met.

You say of course I wouldn't be happy but you opened a post with 'dogs snap it doesn't mean they are going to attack a child' - what would you expect anyone to think reading that? It reads as if you think it's okay for dogs to give kids little bites, that is how I read it anyway.

I have never killed an animal in my life.
I was a vegetarian for over 10 years.
I wouldn't kill a dog for not behaving exactly as I wanted them to, in fact, in most cases I am actually against euthanasia.

The only exception being when dogs bite children, whether you like it or not, people have dogs as companions, it is not acceptable to bite companions, especially when those bites can result in life threatening injuries or death.
It is in my opinion irresponsible to rehome dogs that bite children as you can never guarantee that they won't come into contact with a child again and do the same, or worse again. Even if homed into a child free environment you can't guarantee they won't be rehomed again, get lost, slip their lead etc.
Dogs that bite children are not compatible with the environment they have been bred for.

Butt

You are wrong - dogs do bite if provoked - dogs should not be expected to allow children to do anything they like to them.

If my child was being cruel to the dog - then yes they would deserve a reaction from the dog - however this would not happen ever in my house.

You are lucky you have an accommodating dog -

Look at this picture - what do you see? It is a very unhappy stressed puppy look at the tight lips, the tense eyes and face away from the child trying to calm the situation down dog and child This is asking too much of the dog and an adult needs to step in

<a class="break-all" href="http://driverlayer.com/showimg?v=g&img=www.dogsstate.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/doggirlhug.jpg&org=driverlayer.com/img/dog+children/50/any&ti=Girl%20And%20Her%20Dog%20?&hos=www.dogsstate.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this dog again is extremely stressed the dog is showing major stress reactions, the dog which is panting, ears back and hard eyes an adult should immediately step in and remove the child.

The dog can only communicate in a so called aggressive way as adults are not reading the signs that the dogs are so clearly giving out.

Adults need to recognise the signs of stress from dogs before the dog is forced into a situation eg snapping or nipping.

You do need to rehome the dog, for some reason the dogs boundaries are not being respected and he sounds incredibly anxious. You absolutely must keep your DD away from the dog as she clearly stresses him out by getting into his space, he sees her as a threat.

I disagree with people who think that you should have the dog pts, however, if a suitable home cannot be found i would rather have my dog pts than him go to an unsuitable home.

I had a similar experience with my dog, it turned out the dog had bone cancer and was biting because she trod on his foot. I obviously had to PTS because of the bone cancer but was in the process of finding him a new home. this was out of character for my dog though.

Your dog doesn't sound happy, some dogs are really happy to be cuddled by children, your dog isn't and its not fair on him.

I really feel for you

This is a dog that needs rehoming immediately - that is what good rescues are for.

If the OP is seeing a qualified behaviourist they will help with this.

A good rescue will be responsible for the dog for life and will make sure that it is rehomed appropriately.

For the record I have 4 "aggressive dogs" that I have rehomed (2 are MN dogs) they have not as much lipped curled or growled since being with me and being treated appropriately.

Umm mutty, I never said dogs don't bite if provoked.
I said that regarding puppies, my dog doesn't bite and neither have any other dogs I know ever bitten a puppy.

Nor did I say I allow my children to do anything to the dog.
FAR from it.

I don't need to look at your link, I already know the signs and can tell you that my dog never shows whale eyes, puts her head away from my child, yawns, whines, pins her ears back, pants, growls or anything in the presence of my son.
She actively approaches us for cuddles, she isn't stressed.
She has been dressed up before, I have pictures.
Would you like to see them to prove my point?

Sometimes she when she gets tired of being kissed or cuddled she stretches out then jumps off the sofa and walks off - I don't let my son follow.
I don't let my son hurt or antagonise her in any way.

She is kissed and cuddled a lot because she likes it, most people with pets do hug and kiss their dogs.

Listen to mutty's advice. The dog does not need PTS, it just needs a more suitable home.

I know it must be hard to give a dog up but you can't risk anything happening to your dd, you can rescue another dog, maybe a older dog that is more suitable and likes lots of attention. When you get a puppy from a rescue you don't really know what you are getting or what issues it may have as its older. One of my dogs ( my grumpy Staffie girl ) does not like being poked around, she has never nipped but she will growl if my dd accidentally falls or sits on her, if she did nip I'm afraid I would have to rehome her. Luckily my dd's are now old enough to understand what they can not do with the dog.

Oh good Butt I was just concerned that people reading your post would think that the OP dog had acted in a way unusual for a dog. I am glad that we agree the behaviour was appropriate and that the dog was pushed over its threshold.

If the dog does not experience being put in that situation again then it will not ever need to react again. So if the dog gets correct treatment and handling the dog will not need to be pts.

BUTT.
Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I don't for one second, think that my post read like 'its ok if dogs bite children'.
The fact that you were vegetarian (you knew it was wrong to harm and kill animals) and now you are not, says a lot. You now pay other people to kill animals for you.
Rehoming dogs who have been tortured by children and have snapped, is not irresponsible. It is a duty. They deserve a life in a home without children.
My parents have a dog who has bitten children. I think it is educational for my children to know this dog. They leave her alone and know that different rules apply to her. Therefore, she is no risk to them. All the other dogs they know are wonderful and if they didn't know this dog, they wouldn't understand that a small minority of dogs are a risk and should be treated with caution.
I wish people would treat animals with some of the consideration we reserve for people. Some children behave in a FRIGHTENING way towards other children and are clearly a risk. Should we have them PTS?

Please do not rescue another dog -not until the situation at home is easy to alter sorry Ender I disagree with you there.

Butt I would never hug my dogs ever, stroke, reward, find out what they love, tickling of the chest, rubbing the ears but never ever hug

no, we don't have aggressive children euthanised. Because children are the young of a higher life form with language and greater intelligence, and can mostly be taught not to be aggressive.

not always. But in this country we don't even euthanise repeated unrepentant murderers. We also allow animals in pain and at end of life to be put to sleep, a privilege denied to people. Another debate.

a dog is a lower life form and has a limited learning capacity.

whatever you do, get it away from your child who is of more value.

SPECIAL.
Nice.
Lower form of life...kill it or pass it on.
What lovely values to pass on to your higher forms of life.
By the way, dogs have language. We have been discussing that.

I did say earlier maybe some dogs do but it is not something I have ever seen.

For your information I am no longer a vegetarian because it doesn't suit me, I tried very hard to balance it, I didn't eat much junk, mostly fresh fruit, veg, pulses, nuts, seeds etc and I became extremely ill. I feel a lot better now, thanks for making me really, seriously shitty about my diet by the way, really, thanks.
I hate supporting the meat industry and dairy trade but whenever I go veggie after a while I become ill. It does not suit me for whatever reason.

Well that is where we are different, i do respect animals but dogs are domesticated and expected to fit in with our way of life. Dogs that bite people, well, I have made my opinion known.

I am quite right wing, i am all for the death penalty for paedophiles and murders and strong prison sentences sooo I'll leave you to guess at my opinion.

Mutty - My dog genuinely does like being hugged. Honest!
She tries to sit on people's laps with her paws around their neck expecting them to wrap their arms around her and I know that is her intention because she nudges you and makes growly noises until you do it!
She also loves people to press her against them with their arm when she is sat next to them, kind of like a hug also.
I wouldn't put my dog in a situation where she was uncomfortable.

Just to be clear, I wasn't advising having the dog PTS purely because it reacted to a child behaving in an unwanted way, but because of the previous issues as well.

Thanks again everyone. It wasn't my intention to spark debate like this.

The dog was pushed over the threshold and dd has been told over and over to change her behaviour. I don't feel this is 100% the dog's fault and I agree that it was a warning bite. The dog didn't run up to her and attack her. My issue is probably more with dd and the way she treats the dog. If the dog is sleeping, she will sit down next to it and move its head and shoulders onto her lap, with its neck at an unnatural angle. She is too intense with the dog. If someone persistently came up and stared at me with their nose touching mine, I think I'd have something to say about it too. The issue is that dogs react in a certain way. They can't ask us to stop and sometimes, triggers stack and they do snap. My problem is that I have a sensitive dog pushed to the limit and a dd who keeps pushing more. It's not a good match.

I don't think it's fair to pts but my options are limited. We live in Texas. We don't have no-kill shelters here. I don't think anyone would take a dog with a history of biting and time in a shelter would make her into a basket case. My options are to work on this or pts.... We would not have another dog.

My behaviourist is very good with an excellent reputation and he has offered to meet with the whole family. He often works with children and dogs together. We are going to practise distance between dd and the dog and see him before we make any decisions. My dog is currently laying next to me snoring...

It's not a good match I think you have hit the nail on the head OP. It is not a good match and it is a very dangerous match. The way your DD behaves is very provocative to the dog and very few dogs would put up with that - and of course it is not your DD's fault she behaves this way, she is trying to show love.

I would worry that things have escalated quite a bit now and would want to keep DD and dog completely separate. For me the options would be rehome and if impossible to rehome, PTS.

I know a family that have a biggish dog and two children. The dog is kissed and cuddled constantly by the children and has never shown any aggression to them.
You are being unfair to you daughter.

You can't have children and a dog that can't be touched/looked at the wrong way for goodness sake. You sound like a lovely caring person but I would take this as a warning to get rid, and quick.

Your daughter is only 6, I think it's sad if she has to be taught not to look the family dog in the eye in case it attacks. She will be scared in her own home. It's very sad but I think that you have to choose between your dog and the safety of your child. The dog needs to be re-homed asap.

We had a collie cross a long time ago. He was absolutely gorgeous and we loved him.

I took him to puppy classes. Dh took him to work everyday and as outside he spent the whole day running about and fetching things for dh, ball, frisbee, dh's tools etc.

The only downside was that he was nervous around kids but as we didn't have any then, we though it was fine and we managed. He nipped 2 of our friends dc when they were chasing him even though they were told not too.

But as time went on he got worse around them and it became more and more stressful for us to cope with. The worry of him doing more damage to a child was too great. Also, the stress of them being around was not fair on him.

Eventually we decided to get him rehomed through collie rescue. It was heartbreaking and we were devastated. Then a man rang who was interested. He lived alone, had always had dogs and had no kids living nearby. As soon as he turned up and spoke to our dog he was no longer ours. He went straight to this man without a backward glance and followed all instructions given, sit, stay etc!

By far the best decision for all concerned. Dh was upset for months,grieving really, even though we knew it was the right thing to do.

I do think you are doing the right thing getting your dog rehomed. Yes, they are for life but it is not always that simple and sometimes the risks are too great to bear.

Sorry for the long essay!

I can only agree with mutty.

I have to add though OP, as mum to 7 and 4 year olds and owner of a dog which is very sensitive to inappropriate handling, your description of the way your DD touches your dog made my blood run cold. I think the nicest dog would resent a child who treated it like this. And even my 4 year old, who struggles to contain her love for the dogs, understands that the anxious dog needs extra respect. At 6 my eldest child would have never, ever put his face up to a dog and would have been severely bollocked if he had.

I think your daughter is old enough now to understand the rules and you should expect more from her - your dog deserves better than this. If she can't be trusted she can't be allowed to be with the dog, and it sounds like you had plenty warning signs that she was putting the dog in uncomfortable situations. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and I don't wish to attack you but you need to take responsibility for this - I think you saw it coming on one level.

I don't think rehoming is essential but I also think the only way this dog can stay is if you can keep it safe from your daughter until she can be taught to treat a dog with respect.

I hope you find some sort of compromise - the doghouse will be here for support. Try looking up The Family Dog if you're in the US.

I'm with Booboostoo on this; it's the escalation of the situation that would worry me.

We've had several rescue dogs and fostered with our two DSs since they were very young. DS once overstepped the mark with one and got a big bark and an air snap far, far away from him for it. It's never happened again. If that dog had made contact, it would be back to kennels.

I appreciate you love your dog dearly and don't want to say goodbye but I do think you have to prepare yourself for that eventuality. Imagine if your DD had moved slightly to one side and the bite had caught her in the eye? Or caught the edge of her nose or her lip? She's really lucky it wasn't worse.

Anyhow, I really feel for you. I love my dog so much and can't imagine being without him. Good luck with it and let us know how you get on.

My dog is the most gentle and approachable dog in the world he really is. However I would never approach him when asleep and start moving his head and body around to suit how I wanted him to lie or be, I would never get right up into his face. The way you describe your dd's behaviour is absolutely text book of all the things you shouldn't do with a dog.

This dog should not be put to sleep that would be a horrendous, undeserved and tragic outcome but it needs to be re homed to a more suitable environment ASAP.

Just as people have different personalities so do dogs and this dog needs to be in a home with less physically demonstrative people in it.

I am disgusted by the calls to kill this dog because a child cannot leave it alone. You sound very switched on and aware OP. I hope you can find an outcome that does not result in the undeserved death on an innocent animal that is only asking to be left alone.

This is a staffie ridgeback cross we're talking about - a powerful dog. A powerful dog who is not trustworthy around children. If you re home him how will you feel if he gets passed on again and does end up in a family with children and he does one serious harm - kills a child ?

You know that you can't trust him and you've effectively raised him. He is your responsibility at this point in time - you have to act responsibly. It's not a risk worth taking IMO.